caffienekitty (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
caffienekitty) wrote2009-03-15 05:00 pm
caffienekitty) wrote2009-03-15 05:00 pm
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SPN Meta: 4.15 Speculation Aftershocks.
Meta-ish Speculation and free-association based on events and things said in 4.15.
We seriously got a lot of stuff in 4.15 that could lead into the rest of the season. Particularly from Alastair. Also, there's the death of Pam and some problems some people are finding associated with it.
First, Pam.
When Pam was stabbed, she didn't bleed. There was no blood on the knife. Bleeding didn't happen because the Reapers are out of commission, yes. However, this also explains why she asked Sam not to call a doctor, and why there was no attempt at medical assistance.
Reapers not being there means that mortal conditions or injuries are on hiatus. Aside from the hole made, completely stopped until the Reaper's return. The Reaper not being there wouldn't have any effect on non-lethal wounds. People are still skinning knees, cutting themselves shaving, and getting quasi-concussions from being thrown into headstones. Like Dean. Because there's no blood or anything more than a clean hole when Pam is stabbed, she would know that meant it was a lethal wound. She's a character who is very honest with herself, so she doesn't let Sam call for medical assistance because she knows it's pointless. That's my take on that.
Now. Why Pam died.... She was one of the very few active and recurring characters still alive and ostensibly on the Winchesters' side of things, and who knew what was happening. She was a resource that could be used, and could have been useful in future plot-lines. But it's pretty much down to her and Bobby for mortal Winchester allies, and both the strategic plot internal to the adversary characters of the show and the plot relating to the external season and series arc of the show needed the stakes to get ramped up. This episode did that in a big way on multiple levels, and I'll get to some of those in a bit.
Pam's death hammers a point home, that it's not a game, and it's not a safe thing they are doing, and that people who help them are in the line of fire. There could have been more i's dotted and t's crossed regarding the details of events surrounding her death, but the death or otherwise permanent irrevocable loss of an ally was a plot element that was necessary at this point.
And quite frankly I'd rather it be her than Bobby.
Moving on.
Things Alastair Said:
"Hard to get it up when you're not wearing your meat."
From this statement, it seems Sam's powers are directly connected to his physical body, specifically the demon blood in his body. Therefore, the "Sam is being trained to be Lucifer's vessel" theory gains massive likelihood. This then makes Ruby the schemer I've always hoped she was (training Sam up to be betrayed, and in doing so, alienating him from his brother) and not working for Lilith.
Lilith tried to destroy Sam with the nukey-hand thing. It didn't work, but she thought it would. I would guess from this she either intends to bring her own vessel to the game or wants Lucifer in a non-customized vessel (or not fully prepared vessel of Sam, since she's breaking seals at a frantic rate) so she can kill him and usurp his power. She's the one opening the seals, she's the one trying to get him out. Alastair is working with her, or at least is also working to break the seals, possibly with his own secondary agenda.
From this standpoint, YED's Psychic-kid seeding program would have been to generate the best possible candidate to lead the army of Hell on Earth (and handily setting up a power-structure and chains of command in the process, ready for when Lucifer rose and took over), break the seals and raise Lucifer (or remain ignorant as agents within the demonic power structure worked to do this), and provide a body that would be the best possible host for Big L. YED's reward for this... hm. I'm not sure, since YED knew Dean was going to kill him, and even brought the loaded weapon that would do it, I suspect there will be a return of Azazel. My personal theory of "YED is re-growing inside Sam" still works with his body being used for a vessel. The growing YED moves into Sam as a baby, fixes up the place and then moves out so Big L can move in.
Where does this leave Sam? If the demons' plans go as intended, royally screwed. And currently without the depth of support he needs to have someone see what's going on beyond the surface, get him to admit to himself what's going on and break the cycle before it's too late. If it gets to the stage where YED re-pops, Big L takes over, and Sam gets smushed down inside his own body, Dean's role in all this becomes clearer. He'd then be the only one who can reach the remnants of Sam and get him to fight back and not give up, while at the same time, trying to thwart what Big L is doing while running around in Sam's body.
(On a side note, I think we'll see a repeat of the 'knife in the chest' we got with YED and Grampa Campbell, only with Sam and either YED again, or Big L as the stabber. (Partly because I still have a half-written scene in my notebook, written during the season one hiatus, with that exact scenario.) Now that it's been foreshadowed, it's more likely.)
Enough babbling about that. Next.
"He doesn't really ride a pale horse, but he does have three amigos"
*flaaaaaaaaaaaail* Heh, sorry, reflex. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Death, War, Famine and Pestilence. Bring it, Kripke!!!
I've already said in an earlierflailing post, I suspect if Pestilence is involved, the Croatoan Virus will make a re-appearance in a big way.
I would so love if this happens. The Croatoan Virus has been a gun on the wall for far too long. It resurfacing in a big way, connected to the apocalypse, at this stage? Would be fantastic.
In the episode Croatoan then, Sam's physical body would have been being tested for resistance to the virus, as Lucifer's future vessel would need to withstand the plagues unleashed by Pestilence. This fits very neatly with the 'Sam as the vessel' postulate, and puts YED firmly in Lucifer's camp. Meg may have swapped sides between the end of Season one and Born Under a Bad Sign, since I believe Meg!Sam said something about her father's plans not being hers.
There's more stuff, this was a plot-seed and mytharc dense episode, and I'm sure better minds than mine are jumping all over it, but I'm on the verge of descending into random blithering and flailing, so I'm going to call that enough for one post.
Suffice it to say I want the entire rest of the series now.
(PLEASE, NO SPOILERS OR REFERENCES TO SPOILERY MATERIAL IN COMMENTS! The definition of spoiler for this journal is located in left hand sidebar. Theory and speculation based on aired episodes only.)
We seriously got a lot of stuff in 4.15 that could lead into the rest of the season. Particularly from Alastair. Also, there's the death of Pam and some problems some people are finding associated with it.
First, Pam.
When Pam was stabbed, she didn't bleed. There was no blood on the knife. Bleeding didn't happen because the Reapers are out of commission, yes. However, this also explains why she asked Sam not to call a doctor, and why there was no attempt at medical assistance.
Reapers not being there means that mortal conditions or injuries are on hiatus. Aside from the hole made, completely stopped until the Reaper's return. The Reaper not being there wouldn't have any effect on non-lethal wounds. People are still skinning knees, cutting themselves shaving, and getting quasi-concussions from being thrown into headstones. Like Dean. Because there's no blood or anything more than a clean hole when Pam is stabbed, she would know that meant it was a lethal wound. She's a character who is very honest with herself, so she doesn't let Sam call for medical assistance because she knows it's pointless. That's my take on that.
Now. Why Pam died.... She was one of the very few active and recurring characters still alive and ostensibly on the Winchesters' side of things, and who knew what was happening. She was a resource that could be used, and could have been useful in future plot-lines. But it's pretty much down to her and Bobby for mortal Winchester allies, and both the strategic plot internal to the adversary characters of the show and the plot relating to the external season and series arc of the show needed the stakes to get ramped up. This episode did that in a big way on multiple levels, and I'll get to some of those in a bit.
Pam's death hammers a point home, that it's not a game, and it's not a safe thing they are doing, and that people who help them are in the line of fire. There could have been more i's dotted and t's crossed regarding the details of events surrounding her death, but the death or otherwise permanent irrevocable loss of an ally was a plot element that was necessary at this point.
And quite frankly I'd rather it be her than Bobby.
Moving on.
Things Alastair Said:
"Hard to get it up when you're not wearing your meat."
From this statement, it seems Sam's powers are directly connected to his physical body, specifically the demon blood in his body. Therefore, the "Sam is being trained to be Lucifer's vessel" theory gains massive likelihood. This then makes Ruby the schemer I've always hoped she was (training Sam up to be betrayed, and in doing so, alienating him from his brother) and not working for Lilith.
Lilith tried to destroy Sam with the nukey-hand thing. It didn't work, but she thought it would. I would guess from this she either intends to bring her own vessel to the game or wants Lucifer in a non-customized vessel (or not fully prepared vessel of Sam, since she's breaking seals at a frantic rate) so she can kill him and usurp his power. She's the one opening the seals, she's the one trying to get him out. Alastair is working with her, or at least is also working to break the seals, possibly with his own secondary agenda.
From this standpoint, YED's Psychic-kid seeding program would have been to generate the best possible candidate to lead the army of Hell on Earth (and handily setting up a power-structure and chains of command in the process, ready for when Lucifer rose and took over), break the seals and raise Lucifer (or remain ignorant as agents within the demonic power structure worked to do this), and provide a body that would be the best possible host for Big L. YED's reward for this... hm. I'm not sure, since YED knew Dean was going to kill him, and even brought the loaded weapon that would do it, I suspect there will be a return of Azazel. My personal theory of "YED is re-growing inside Sam" still works with his body being used for a vessel. The growing YED moves into Sam as a baby, fixes up the place and then moves out so Big L can move in.
Where does this leave Sam? If the demons' plans go as intended, royally screwed. And currently without the depth of support he needs to have someone see what's going on beyond the surface, get him to admit to himself what's going on and break the cycle before it's too late. If it gets to the stage where YED re-pops, Big L takes over, and Sam gets smushed down inside his own body, Dean's role in all this becomes clearer. He'd then be the only one who can reach the remnants of Sam and get him to fight back and not give up, while at the same time, trying to thwart what Big L is doing while running around in Sam's body.
(On a side note, I think we'll see a repeat of the 'knife in the chest' we got with YED and Grampa Campbell, only with Sam and either YED again, or Big L as the stabber. (Partly because I still have a half-written scene in my notebook, written during the season one hiatus, with that exact scenario.) Now that it's been foreshadowed, it's more likely.)
Enough babbling about that. Next.
"He doesn't really ride a pale horse, but he does have three amigos"
*flaaaaaaaaaaaail* Heh, sorry, reflex. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Death, War, Famine and Pestilence. Bring it, Kripke!!!
I've already said in an earlier
I would so love if this happens. The Croatoan Virus has been a gun on the wall for far too long. It resurfacing in a big way, connected to the apocalypse, at this stage? Would be fantastic.
In the episode Croatoan then, Sam's physical body would have been being tested for resistance to the virus, as Lucifer's future vessel would need to withstand the plagues unleashed by Pestilence. This fits very neatly with the 'Sam as the vessel' postulate, and puts YED firmly in Lucifer's camp. Meg may have swapped sides between the end of Season one and Born Under a Bad Sign, since I believe Meg!Sam said something about her father's plans not being hers.
There's more stuff, this was a plot-seed and mytharc dense episode, and I'm sure better minds than mine are jumping all over it, but I'm on the verge of descending into random blithering and flailing, so I'm going to call that enough for one post.
Suffice it to say I want the entire rest of the series now.
(PLEASE, NO SPOILERS OR REFERENCES TO SPOILERY MATERIAL IN COMMENTS! The definition of spoiler for this journal is located in left hand sidebar. Theory and speculation based on aired episodes only.)
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I love your theory of Sam's body being shaped as a vessel for Lucifer. Very, very intriguing idea there. It just freaks me out not knowing how this season will shake out and lead to the next!
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I didn't make the connection you did with Pam's (lethal) wound not bleeding, but now that I've read this, that makes perfect sense.
I think that when missing scenes come out, we might find a cut explainer scene regarding injury vs lethal injury somewhere after the graveyard scene.
I love your theory of Sam's body being shaped as a vessel for Lucifer. Very, very intriguing idea there.
I've seen it around a couple places, although I've had similar ideas all the way back in season 2. With the kind of power structure Demons seem to favour, it makes more sense than having a psychic kid lead the army and raise the real boss as a figurehead.
It just freaks me out not knowing how this season will shake out and lead to the next!
There is so much potential in play right now, it feels like season One again. :-) The possibility of the Four Horseman is massively intriguing to me, and I hope that they do something with it (and not a one episode fizzle like the 7 Deadly Sins :-P). They could easily be used as the big bads for all of Season 5, if, say they get loose as one of the later seals, either with Sam fighting from inside himself to regain control, or if Big L is thwarted at the end of this season.... Gah! I'm so excited about the possibilities I cannot stop flailing. :-D
I really do think that it will work out in the end. Somehow. The boys will be together as family and brothers in the end, but we're going to go through a world of hurt to get to that end.
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Of course, Sam's body is supercharged with the demon blood.
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1) Having Sam and Dean save her life means she now owes the boys a huge favor. This could come in handy if Sam dies in the finale.
2) If Dean has to kill Sam!Lucifer during the finale (before spending next season rescuing him), whether literally or metaphorically, I expect he'll be feeling all suicidal immediately afterward, and a nice fireside chat with Tessa - where his angsty noggin asks her to take his soul - would be just the thing.
****
I'm also wondering whether Dean, now rescued from Hell and brought back to life, has become a Seal - possibly the Final Seal. Is that why he's different? Because Sam!Lucifer or Sam!Azazel or whoever he is at that point will hesitate to destroy that Seal. Is that why Casti'el recruited Dean for the job?
I just love Alastair and his relationship with Dean. Is it Thursday yet?
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Hm. Possibly. There's certainly been enough actions taken against her by demons to warrant her budging in some way from her 'neutral' status.
Is that why he's different?
I think he's 'different' for other reasons than his stint in Hell and subsequent monkeying around with angels. But we'll see. :-)
I just love Alastair and his relationship with Dean. Is it Thursday yet?
Adversary characters are awesome that way. I just wich he'd drop the annoying speaking voice.
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What are you thinking of here?
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I figure Dean is different in that he's the only one in the world who can stop Sam for all the reasons they built into the story - through love, because he withstood 30 years of torture and will be able to withstand what they throw at him this time too (and Sam really does not know, viscerally what this means, because last time he sacrificed himself rather than have Sammy die, so this time, he got to correct not only that choice, but the pattern of his family since his mother first took the deal in order to bring John back to life. Etc.
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2 OMG YES to all you said about Pam. And her going over Bobby. I have a very nasty feeling Bobby might not survive the full five season's run (but then hey, it's the same nasty feeling that tells me Kripke is evil and will kill the boys at the end of it, and I actually think that it'll be one or the other but not both)
3 If Lucifer rises at the end of the season and 5 is all about Dean trying to get Sam back... *meep*
On the other hand so far they've kept it always within serious budget constrains (ie, the world at large is unaware of the whole thing, so no need to dish out for post-apocalyptic sets) so I don't think they'll ever unleash the whole she-bang. Which does not preclude Sam-vessel-Lucifer progression, or at least the threat of it.
4 Ruby is so scheming in this direction, I'm just sure of it!
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(Anonymous) 2009-03-17 05:26 am (UTC)(link)Sharon
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2.
I have a feeling he won't last out the season*sticks fingers in ears and goes La la la very loudly*3. If they do get to the stage where the seals are broken and Lucifer walks (in Sam or otherwise), they can still do it within budget, without resorting to mass destruction on-screen, or even in show. It'd be cool if the apocalypse involved demons invading key world leaders and using the infrastructure in place to end the world with humanity's own weapons, and that could be show through news reports and so forth, with a few outbreaks locally, filmed in some of the ghost towns around just outside the lower mainland in BC.
4. I sure hope so. The potential is there fo her to be an epic turn-coat, I just don't know if they're going to use that potential. I'm very much not a fan of Genevieve Cortese, but it would be awesome for Ruby to have some, some... something. More than what she's got.
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Additional note: The fact that Sam's powers are connected only with his body, and have NO association with his SOUL means that THE POWERS CANNOT TURN SAM EVIL.
It's his CHOICE.
*glee*
*steals your icon to bludgeon my flisties with*
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Thank you! *high fives back*
Additional note: The fact that Sam's powers are connected only with his body, and have NO association with his SOUL means that THE POWERS CANNOT TURN SAM EVIL.
Yep. Power is like a tool. Like a hammer, say. You can use a hammer to build a set of shelves, or you can use it to beat someone's brain in. It's a tool.
*steals your icon to bludgeon my flisties with*
Bludgeon away! Spread the Zen of Kripke!