caffienekitty (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
caffienekitty) wrote2009-03-21 03:09 am
caffienekitty) wrote2009-03-21 03:09 am
Entry tags:
SPN Meta: 4.16 Speculation overflow.
Continuing from the 4.16 reaction post point of:
-FAAAAAAAAAAAAATE!!!!! Fate! Dean's the only one that can stop it now! Oh wow!
The thing is, he had to be the one to start it in order to be the one to stop it. If John had broken, John would be the one trying to stop it, and, and, um, well. Sam would not follow John's orders. Dean's going to be the only one able to stop all this because, as I've said a couple times before, he let his six-year-old anti-christ brother have the last of the Lucky Charms. I might just explode from the glee if that happens, because I've been thinking that was going to be the case since season one and OMG!! I think I posted it on the TWoP Wish list ages ago! Somewhere on TWoP anyway.
SO! Dean had to be the one to start it because he's the only one who can stop it. Everyone knows he's always been the only one to be able to get through to Sam. If it had been John, killing Sam might be the only way John could stop him. An empowered Sam (with a demon frigging nursing him with her blood OMG!! as a voice in his ear), confronted by John would almost certainly never give in. It'd make him more stubborn and more determined to do things his own way and eventually become too powerful to overcome, even by killing him.
Dean? Sam might listen to Dean. Sam might stop for Dean. And he's the only person on Earth Sam would do that for. So Dean had to, had to be the one to start this and break the first seal, so it could be stopped.
Also, John didn't break in Hell, possibly because he knew Dean had to be the one to go there and break. Maybe. There's still a question of how much he knew about Sam, really, but if he knew enough... OW. So then when John came back and saw Dean at the end of AHBL2... Could he see the big 'Sold to Crossroads Demon' sign on Dean's soul and knew that everything was set for Dean to go to Hell and break? Which would add a whole 'nother layer to that scene. In which case? Means that Dean is exactly the man John wanted him to be. Plus after Dean did the deal, John was down in Hell for a few more weeks Hell-time. They had to use it as a way to try to break him. And Holy CRAP, John had to be just destroyed inside, for as long as he's known about this all, whether before or after Hell. I think before. Oh crap and it goes back to the conversation at the hospital in IMToD too, in that case. I think Dean might take his renewed memories of his coma-time and watching John and start asking some questions about exactly what John knew.
(Additional random thought. The demons wanted John to be the one to break in Hell. He was also supposed to be the one to get the pendant. Hmmmmm... Needs moar brain. Bobby needs to be asked some hard questions about that damn thing.)
(Another additional random thought on another topic has been kidnapped by a plot-bunny. We'll see how that goes.)
If John still hadn't broken or hadn't gone to Hell at all and if Dean hadn't gone to Hell and broken, it would have been some other poor schmuck, dragged to Hell and broken, someone who had no chance at all of stopping whoever won Survivor: Cold Oaks, with words or weapons, angel assistance or not. Dean and Sam are a matched set. One to fill the role Hell wanted filled, and one to stop the Apocalypse. Like the frigging season tagline says: "Two brothers, one fate." They mean that. Any other combination of people would most likely enable Hell to accomplish the apocalypse.
Dean's the only one who can stop Sam. Stop him. Not necessarily kill him. And Sam may be the only one who could be stopped. Anyone who's looking for hope for how this series might end? There it is. In spades.
It'll be a long painful road to get to that though, and I'm certain it's gonna get so very much darker before the storm starts to clear, so buckle up, buttercup.
NO SPOILERS IN COMMENTS PLEASE!
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One of the things I found most fascinating... Going back to IMTOD and the whole idea that John was supposed to be the righteous man who broke in Hell... Is this all part of Azazel's original endgame? Was this his plan all along? In IMTOD he said he wanted John more than the Colt. Is this the reason? Is this why he'd risk Dean's recovery when, if we believe ITB, he KNEW Dean had claimed to be the one who was going to kill him? Azazel was Lucifer's standard bearer. Was Azazel's plan to prepare the way for Lucifer all along...????
I do love that Sam hasn't given in to the Dark Side for the power or for selfish reasons (like Ava and to some extent Jake), but to save Dean, and, as a by-product, to save the world...
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Of course, the thing is, while Alistair didn't lie about Dean breaking Seal of Doom Uno, he may have lied about John. Whatever happened to that Demons lie thing? Did the boys forget it?
Now I wanna write about some poor dude who broke and was Raised and now needs to kill Sam but can't because, not only is Sam the BoyKing Chosen One, he's got Dean on his team and no one can touch him.
*hee*
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not enough to write it myself though *cough*
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Of course, because I'm twisted like this... what if John did break, the demons thought for one second Yay! We got our apocalypse... oh crap. The seal didn't break. Wrong man. Next?!
(Because John got out of hell awful fast for someone supposed to be struck up on the rack.)
Also -- speaking of Sam and Azazel and speculating on Ruby's connection... I got a bad shiver down my spine when Ruby says "Fire's our friend" and Sam didn't so much as *blink*. After everything he's lost to Azazel and his signature identifier, Sam didn't even freaking blink. Dead girlfriend pinned on the ceiling, bursting into flames, Sam? Remember her? Remember Mom? Remember almost-victim baby Rosie? Remember burning your dad's corpse because Azazel killed him?
Oh Sam. I'm scared for him.
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I love that Dean is the chosen one. Of course it sucks that it's gonna get damn ugly before he stops it, but he *will* stop it.
Maybe he will have to metaphysically kill Sam in order to save him. I just can't wait to see how all this plays out.
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Absolutely. I get the feeling both the demons and the angels are sort of "death or failure" black and white, and can't see that there's a different way that doesn't involve killing people or dying trying.
Dean's never going to be able to kill Sam. So he might not feel he's strong enough to avert the Apocalypse, but he WILL be strong enough to save Sam when Sam's the one who does it. That's my theory anyway!
I sort of think saving Sam is averting the apocalypse. Or the keystone of it. It would tie back into the themes of strength of family to overcome any obstacle that go all through this show, and finds a third, non "Kill or die" option. I keep thinking of the resolution of the Shadow War in Babylon 5, where the commander basically told both sides to get lost. I think we might get something a little like that. Hell wants one resolution, heaven wants another resolution, neither of them are good from the Winchesters' perspective, individually or together, and they end up going a third way that brings the boys back together as a family and ends the Apocalypse, all at once.
ETA: The other half of the response:
Was Azazel's plan to prepare the way for Lucifer all along...????
I think so. I've got other meta on Azazel's strategies, and preparing the way for Lucifer has definitely been part of what he was up to. Getting John into Hell and breaking him would keep Dean from being the one who broke.
I do love that Sam hasn't given in to the Dark Side for the power or for selfish reasons (like Ava and to some extent Jake), but to save Dean, and, as a by-product, to save the world...
Exactly! He might be down on Dean's ability to cope and so forth after he came back from Hell, but he still takes action to protect him.
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You know... Sam said he got it from "Uncle Bobby." And now Sam's recently been shown to have gotten something (information this time) that he thought was from Bobby, but was actually from a different source...
What if one of the demons mimicked Bobby to Wee!Sam and gave him the pendant for John? Or what if it was Castiel that time too? *ponders*
Of course, the thing is, while Alistair didn't lie about Dean breaking Seal of Doom Uno, he may have lied about John. Whatever happened to that Demons lie thing? Did the boys forget it?
The thing also is, demons tell the truth when they know it'll screw a person up worse than any lie could. Jo and BUaBS, for example. It could go either way though, you're right.
Now I wanna write about some poor dude who broke and was Raised and now needs to kill Sam but can't because, not only is Sam the BoyKing Chosen One, he's got Dean on his team and no one can touch him.
Do eeeeeet! Ooo! Hey! One of the prior Crossroad Demon victims from thingy, Crossroad Blues, the guy who sold his soul to save his wife! I don't know if he'd be remotely righteous enough though.
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Heh. Maybe John wasn't righteous enough? XD
(Because John got out of hell awful fast for someone supposed to be struck up on the rack.)
So did a lot of other people though... Maybe the gate opening cut everyone loose for a bit? Like a Stat Holiday? I don't know.
I got a bad shiver down my spine when Ruby says "Fire's our friend" and Sam didn't so much as *blink*. After everything he's lost to Azazel and his signature identifier, Sam didn't even freaking blink.
OOOO! DUDE! Awesome catch! I totally missed that. You're so right. That's disconcerting. There's meta in that for sure.
Oh Sam. I'm scared for him.
*nods like crazy*
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If John wasn't righteous enough, it wouldn't have worked. It's certainly something to think about.
I love that Dean is the chosen one. Of course it sucks that it's gonna get damn ugly before he stops it, but he *will* stop it.
Exactly.
Maybe he will have to metaphysically kill Sam in order to save him.
Or maybe just kill the demon blood, although that has problematic elements too. I still think Sam will get saved rather than killed. Although I don't doubt they're going to imply otherwise right to the last minute.
I just can't wait to see how all this plays out.
Me either. It's going to hurt.
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Your speculation on John, what he knew before/during his time in Hell, is too heartbreaking to digest. This show makes me THINK! Day-um!
I have strongly felt, since Season 1, that Dean would be the one who would get through to Sam when the time came. Because of their shared lives, their history, in the end it would be Dean who brought Sam back to reality, back to his humanity. I really, really believe it...but it's going to be torturous to get there! *breathes*
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Ooooh. Now that? Is a fun idea, dude.
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--
In a world where Sam Winchester never died and Dean Winchester never went to Hell, David Marcolls is the man who breaks the first Seal and is charged by God to stop the Apocalypse.
Of course, such a Herculean task requires getting close to the human vessel of Lucifer, which is impossible because of his brother.
So, what is the bringer about of the Apocalypse to do?
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ETA: You know, between John, this guy, Robert Johnson, possibly Bela, and the other deal-makers, there's a "five people who didn't break the first seal and one who did" fic lurking...
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Exactly! This show, all through has been about the strength of family to overcome anything, and what's coming down the line is some really big anything, but in the end I really believe they'll tie it back into that theme. If nothing else than to justify the occasional anvil.
Your speculation on John, what he knew before/during his time in Hell, is too heartbreaking to digest. This show makes me THINK! Day-um!
What John knew when is something that's been a subject of pondering for me since season 1, and this season is really lighting a fire under it. The thinkiness is wonderful and adding so much depth to the world and the characters, because it makes viewers internalize the show more in analysis of it.
I really, really believe it...but it's going to be torturous to get there! *breathes*
I know. I suspect the end of this season will be particularly hard and divisive for fans. There's a thundering herd of foreshadowing coming to a head, I think.
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