caffienekitty (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
caffienekitty) wrote2008-11-23 11:25 pm
caffienekitty) wrote2008-11-23 11:25 pm
Entry tags:
Reaction: Supernatural 4.10 -Reaction, Meta, Nitpickery, Speculation and Snark
Neither RL crap, nor power failure, nor, nor, uh, anything else will keep me from reacting to this episode. *swats everything away* Shoo!
(Contains profanity)
Spoiler Timeline
-Oct 18: spnnewsletter. "Interview with Traci Dinwiddie (spoilers for upcoming episode(s))" *facepalm* The first spoiler being that she will be in upcoming episodes, which means her character will be in upcoming episodes. Which YESSSS!!! That's Pamela Barnes, right? I figured she had too much set-up and was too cool not to return.
-Oct 25: Because Kripke, bless his little cotton socks, cannot open his mouth without spoilers coming out, from the "Dean's not a dick" press release; Dean has a Deep Dark Secret, and we'll find out about it in 4.10. Right before a hiatus no doubt. Eeeeeeeek.
Okay, I'm in the minority, I guess, because when "Bloody Mary" aired and Dean's eyes bled? I didn't think that had anything to do with any secrets Dean might be harboring. I just figured she was out of her mirror, so she had less restrictions on her powers, and also, Dean was the one that broke her mirror. Or he'd lost someone he was trying to save, couldn't tell anyone about it. Or maybe he felt guilty for Jess's death since he didn't get there in time. Or whatever. Boy carries enough guilt around with him to attract a barge-load of ghosts and crap. I never thought "Ooo! Why did Dean's eyes bleed? Has he got deep dark secrets?" I figured Dean had more than enough stuff lurking around in his past and psyche to account for it.
So now, Dean's got a deep dark secret that makes ghosts who were secretly murdered by bullying assholes want to get him. This makes me very nervous. But, I kind of hope it's that teeny, wee Dean saw YED pinning Mary to the wall and ran back to his room because she told him to and secretly feels like he got Mary killed. Or not. Because if it's getting revealed right before a hiatus, which makes it possibly tie into mytharc... eeee. *has massive anxiety*
-Nov 6 IMDB while looking up some info for a prior episode. Sigh. There will be an episode called "Hell's Angels" O.O Oh man, is one- will- falling- fallen- eek. O.O No time to brain! Will brain later! Muuuuch later!
-Nov 9th Delayed processing of 4.09 spoiler, side effect. This one'll be Dean's missing four months. It's possibly the rescue, and the start of what Dean really remembers, and it's either going to confirm or disprove this theory. I like my theory living in ifs and maybes. At this point, I don't want to know if it's true or not now. I just want it to be possible. *is very nervous*
-Nov 10th Comment in Ratings thread at TWoP (which I should stop checking and get the ratings elsewhere, but there's colour commentary there and stuff about pre-emptions... Sigh.). Title of ep 4.10 has been changed from Hell's Angels to Heaven and Hell (what, biker gangs don't like Supernatural?)
All I gotta say about that? Is meep. My auto-speculating brain is shutting down in self-defense for this episode. The spec might drive me insane, and there's a hiatus to survive.
-Nov 11th Widely disseminated comments from Jim Beaver's Myspace. Bobby will not be in this episode. Another one where some kind of touchback to Bobby feels necessary, dammit. Any kind of touchback.
So! Guessing this episode will end with a giant "Whaaaaaat?!" followed by, what? Two months of hiatus hell?
So. On with it.
Reaction, Meta, Nitpickery, Bursts of Loud Speculation and Snark for Supernatural 4.10 - "Heaven and Hell"
...hunh. Good thing I built that hiatus bunker on my weekend off...
-Previously: Ooo! Hello, Pam! So is it this week, then? Nice thorough recap of last week. *nods*
-"You're some heartless sons of bitches, you know that?"/"As a matter of fact, we are. And?" Heh. I have this vague sense that maaaaybe Castiel's not too into this 'kill Anna' thing. It's his resigned face of angel woobie. Just a hunch. Call me nutty. Though that "And?" ...Hm. Also, uh... did Castiel just basically infer that God is a bitch? He is picking up bad habits from Dean.
-"She is faaar from innocent." And worse than Ruby. Oh really?? Hm. What's worse than a demon to an angel? Castiel looks so damn depressed in the background.
-Combat! With angels? Seriously? You guys are insane. Noble and stuff, I guess, but frigging insane.
-I love, absolutely love how Uriel's being all in-your-face brawly, and Castiel just walks calmly up to Sam and hits him with the angel fingers of 'you go sleep now thud'. I also love that Sam's calls him 'Cas' and looks so freaked that he's facing him down. I kind of wonder if they had Misha Collins walking along a bench or something to put him at the same height as Jared, though. Hee!
-Uriel really doesn't like Dean.... Hm. I wonder why? *ponders*
-OMG CASTIEL!!! Oh fuck! What was that? Door-handle-angels-get-nuked! Gah! O.O Okay, cool as Anna is, if she just permanently toasted Castiel, she's on my shit list forever. I doubt she did, maybe just shoved them out of the plane of Earth for a while, given the up and back visual thing, but that was quite alarming. Hunh. It appears I've gotten rather attached to Castiel. Not Bobby-level attached yet but... hell of a way to find out. I feel like my fur's standing on end. Also what the hell did Anna do??
-[Slow mo on rewatch: That was fantastic! Castiel's shadow gets big, develops wing shadows, then becomes his wings as he's blasted back. Uriel's shadow gets wings too, but they look... weird in the shadow, like almost skeletal, or like the, hehe, like his primary feathers are very long and really sparse, like he only has three or four. He'd fly like a bus. That was cool!! Well done FX crew!]
-Ooo, Anna's bleeding! Psychic thing like Sam? No, it's cuts. I love how, how... I don't know what, just perfect to the situation Dean sounds when he says, "Did you kill them?" Kind of shaky and incredulous and holy crap what just happened, and what is this person if she can kill angels?
-Ooo... drawing symbols in blood to ward off angels... That doesn't bode well. Ooo! She didn't kill them! She better not be lying! And she better not have sent them to the same 'far away' as Lilith sent Ruby, even though it does seem to have a revolving door policy.
-It just popped into her head, so she drew it on a mirror in her own blood. Hm. Popped into her head. Like angel voices do... Hm. *ponders*
-Ooo! Extra growling in the title sound after the scream, I think?
-Safe? BOBBY'S PLACE!!! APOCALYPSE BUNKER!!!! But... uh. Jim Beaver says he wasn't in this episode... *is suddenly alarmed* No, no, if Bobby was dying here, he'd have been there to be his corpse. *derails that thought train before it can go any further* But where's Bobby?
-Traci Dinwiddie. Aha! It is this episode she's back in. *clears floating spoiler*
-Yep. Don't show fear in front of the demon who's manipulating your brother. Even though you totally are.
-Keep an eye on her???? O.O Okay, yeah, well I guess since Anna's in the demon-proof room Ruby can't actually get at her, but... Gnh. That's a dangerous level of trust you're showing there, Dean.
-YAY! They got the car back from the hotel where Ruby said it was being watched by demons. Who either were still watching, had given up, or were never there and were a fabrication of Ruby's to get the boys to hop to and obey her. *ponders*
-Bobby in a trucker hat and a banana hammock. ...um. I'm kind of disturbed that I'm not finding that image more disturbing. o.O
-Hunh. Nobody wrote this. There's no 'Written by' credit. Story by Trevor Sands, Teleplay by Eric Kripke. Which AFAIK means Kripke adapted this guy's story or story idea to script, which seems... exceptionally odd. ...Is Trevor Sands a fanfic writer??? That'd be freaky. No, no... he's got other scripts for sci-fi stuff... hunh. Weird. If not a little alarming. Directed by J. Miller Tobin, who among other things directed "Born Under a Bad Sign" and "A Very Supernatural Christmas." Hm. Oddness abounds, possibly with extra blood and torturing, given "AVSC".
-Ooo! Clear pause on Anna's psych papers!: Connor Beverly Behavioral Medicine Center. Anna's D.O.B. is April 13, 198...5 I think?. Her Doctor's name is Regina Walters. The date she was admitted is September 10, 2008, er... eight days before Castiel yanked Dean out of Hell and she started hearing angels. Hunh. Don't know what may or may not be up with that. I call typo. Or misleading blur. *nods* 11/12/87 Admitted to South Central Hospital Pediatrics "He's not my real father" and "My real father is mad, very mad. He wants to kill me." [Rewatch: *facepalm* Oh.] They recommended giving her Valium but her folks said no. Which considering she was (if 1985 is right as her birth year) two and a half years old was probably wise of them. She was apparently in therapy from July 4th, 1988 to September 1st, 1994. Over eight years. That must've been fun. *is totally ignoring that the majority of the text on both sheets is exactly the same, down to the ragged right justification breaks* Also assorted form numbers and patient numbers I'm not going to transcribe, but would make good questions for a trivia quiz. *hugs the SPN art department* Yay, details!
-Okay, she was two and a half, thank you for the confirmation, Sam.
-"I'm watching her!" Hee. Okay, point for Ruby. Although it makes her seem more like a bored teenager and less like a demon plotting something... hm.
-"I would give anything to know." I'm thinking you probably really don't wanna know, Anna. Buuut you won't know that you don't wanna know until you do know. These things are kind of a pain in the butt that way. *nods sagely*
-Ooo! It's Pam! I can tell by the boots! Those are totally Pam boots! Yay Pam! \o/
-Hm... Pam caught up fast on the other-than-sight perception bus. She's only been blind for two months. That's... interesting....
-Oh really? White eyes, hunh? Ooo! Is she Lilith hiding in plain sight? She has to have shown Dean the eyes already, right? Does Sam know? If she isn't Lilith, will there be a tragic misunderstanding later? ...Oh, wait, she says demony. Hm. Still possible that she's Lilith in plain sight, maybe? Especially adding in that 'tell me what your deal is' bit. *ponders and is totally not paranoid at all*
-Hm. Sam and Dean kind of randomly lurking around in the background just observing stuff is... a little... Hm. Disconcerting. Like the script or director didn't know what to do with them so they just kind of stand around watching. A little like they're being sidelined. Hm. That'll pass, though... *frowns*
-Okay, maybe Pam's not Lilith, since she's in Bobby's safe room now. Unless Lilith is high enough in the hierarchy that she can bypass all the crap Bobby has going on in that bunker without flinching, in which case frigging EEEK!!! O.O
-How will this work in the safe room (incidentally, cool that the walls are starting to look rusty now, what with the salt-covered iron and all)? Oh. Okay. Just her internal memories, right. They aren't trying to hook up to Angel Wi-Fi and Google her, find out what her 'Wanted' poster says. So doing this in the bunker is just to keep things from getting at her while she's vulnerable. Sure. *nods and side-eyes Pam for being sufficiently 'adapted' to sightlessness to find Anna's head without hesitation there*
-Oooo! Psychic door slamming and lights exploding!! *flail* And Dean gets decked by a girl again, hee!
-It's getting kind of annoying me that the boys are relegated to being exposition triggers here with the feeder questions. But I guess it'll pay off once they have sufficient data. Yeah. *nods*
-Angel. ....Oookaaaay.... A fallen angel, which would make her a demon wouldn't it? Or maybe some kind of 'Sleeper Cell' Angel, in deep cover on Earth, which is why she's getting the signal but has lost the instructions on what to do when she hears it? But then why do Castiel and Uriel want to kill her? To free her from being body-bound? No, no, that doesn't jive at all. Unless she did fall, just not all the way down, in which case... Um... Doesn't that- Isn't she- Don't they... Hunh. That's.... Hunh. *processors locked up, please reboot brain*
-[Ozzy Osborne and Warcraft. Um. I'm seriously boggled by that, but it might just be because my brain's doing a cold restart.]
-Alright, so, she used to be in the same 'foxhole' as Castiel and Uriel, and says she used to be their immediate superior. (Which, really? Isn't Uriel supposed to be one of the top four? Makes her sound kind of Sue-ish, suddenly being so important, but whatever *handwaves*) And she disobeyed orders and fell, and now they want to kill her? That sounds like a major over-simplification to me. What was the order she disobeyed? When, why, and for whom did she disobey it? They themselves want to kill her, or they are operating under specific orders from On High, or is this a standing order to gank any rogues? And... gah. Many many questions. Must ponder faster. *ponders*
-"She fell to Earth, became human," clarifies Pamela... Really? *glances suspiciously* I'm not sure whether that was a case of 'boys acting as exposition triggers again' or a hint that Pam is showing knowledge she didn't have before, and that combined with the white eyes, the senses, and the little subtle pull-back she did when Anna said she was an angel... except that might have been because of her experience with the last one she talked to. Hm. Or maybe Bobby filled her in on angel mechanics since she'd probably want info on what burned out her eyes. Still. *glances suspiciously again*
-[Ya know, random, but I keep getting this feeling like Kripke used to play or GM a lot of 'In Nomine'...]
-She ripped out her what? Grace? Buh... hunh. Okay. So. I guess to an ethereal being, which is what I'd guess angels are when they aren't embodied, a state of grace could be like an internal organ. *nods* And I mean really, 'grace' isn't a bad name for an internal organ (I mean, look at the spleen. Only, y'know, not really because that would involve self-surgery and that would make a mess of the keyboard), not a bad name at all, just a little confusing. So, metaphorically speaking, the grace of God is metaphorically like an internal organ to an angel, and without it they Fall. Hm. Yeah, that works. I think.
-And falling entails being reborn as a human. Hm. Which would kind of equate to being reincarnated, sort of, in a lower state to learn some lesson so as to get back in to a state of enlightenment, or something, I guess? *brain overheating*
-Stanley Cup. Ha! *pats the cute little Canadian content*
-Get it back. If she can find it. Uhhhh.... okay, getting the impression that that's not an extended 're-attain a higher state of being' euphemism now... so... we aren't speaking metaphorically then, and this isn't 'getting off God's naughty list through self-discovery, good works, enlightenment, and abnegation of the self', and they're gonna hunt up an angel spleen... Hunh. That's kind of cracktacular. Who let Edlund into the cosmogony? Ohhh. It was Edlund's idea to make demons formerly humans, wasn't it? Hm. Oh well. *shrugs* Okay then! So an angel's grace is a locatable thing. And a discorporate internal organ of rough (and probably blasphemous) similarity to a fish's gas bladder. Because that's the way angels work in the SPN universe. Oookay. *tests suspension of disbelief* Sure. Let's go out and find that puppy!
-And of course since we're hunting angel organs that equate to states of divine empowerment, of course the falling part is literal. Like twin meteors. Heh. Ya know, there was a major meteor seen near the Alberta Saskatchewan border the night this aired. Actually... hunh. Holy crap. I think I saw that thing! I did! There were two really bright lights in the sky in that direction at about the time it would have fallen, one was falling faster than the other. I figured the local air base was doing an exercise of some sort and had fired off some star-shells. I would have been seeing that from 1200KM (720miles) away, and over two mountain ranges... Heh. Wow. That's freaky. O.O
-So aaaaanyway, my UFO encounters aside, this apparently puts Heaven (or wherever the angels live) somewhere up in the literal sky in the SPN verse.
-March '85, meteor vanished, which was nine months before Anna was born... except her medical record said she was born in April '85. But I'm totally okay with handwaving that, because I have family members with two birthdates and once knew a guy who was legally dead for years, so Vital Statistics Records friggery and slop doesn't phase me too much.
-So, why did she fall? *quickly scans 1985 in Wikipedia, just in case* Hm. Nothing jumps out as possible 'angel disobeyed an order' items in March... However, if April '85 was her actual birthdate and she had fallen nine months before in July '85, around the time Anna and her 'grace' fell to Earth, there was a lightning strike at York Minster Cathedral. Maybe she smote someone that God didn't want... Smoted? Smitten? Unauthorized smiting on Holy Ground. *nods* Hm. Or attempting to stop or interfere with an authorized smiting, since Uriel's a little... enthusiastic... about smiting. It bears pondering. *nudges the beginnings of a mutant plot bunny into the wild*
-Okay, Genvieve Cortese is doing better at the whole actually seeming like she's awake and part of the scene. She's at least looking in a logical direction while in the background. There have been several times this episode where she's been on the screen and talking and I haven't been excessively annoyed. Hm. This may be a sign of the Apocalypse.... Whoops, no, wait, there she goes again. She's in coma-mode and mumbling. No Apocalypse today.
-Ooo. What does Sam have to do?? Please let it not be boink Ruby. That would be horribly trite, not to mention major league wank-fuel. I'm sure the implication that that's what it might be is solely a subjective one, and what Sam actually would have to do is something more palatable like a blood sacrifice or something. *nods*
-"It was... after I fell." Okay. So. Not some kind of 'fated from birth' thing, since Dean was born in 1979, and not some kind of 'fated from the fire' thing, because that was in 1983... Hm. Unless Anna and her crew were just out of the loop. *ponders*
-She fell because of emotions? Angels don't get emotions? So... Angels are... Vulcans? Hunh. Odd. So Heaven isn't just in the sky, it's a desert planet circling 40 Eridani A, and angels have green blood. Or not. No emotions, though, eh? Castiel seemed to have an emotional response or two... he smiled, and I swear there was a titch of a sneer there once... hm... Maybe Dean's infecting him. Or... *ponders*
-No choice, only obedience. Ah. So the free will thing is not externally imposed, they can disobey and they have the capacity for free will.,. So, angels don't have free will because they won't be angels anymore if they do. Interesting.
-Four have seen God. Yep. And if the show's following the same wiki page I am, Uriel's one of them. But who knows, maybe he's not that Uriel, considering Uriel's supposed to be one of the big four and Anna's saying she was his boss once. Uriel could be a very common name among the angels in this 'verse, all named after the big famous one. Like all the kids getting named Justin and Britney in 2001. *nods*
-Heee! Fathers! Heee. Yeah. Dean understands. Your Dad's God, his Dad's John Winchester.
-"Grace ground zero." Detached 'Grace' landing brings sudden... life. OH FUCK. *INCOHERENT FLAPPY HANDS* BIG TUNGUSKA BLAST!! WHO GAVE UP THEIR GRACE TO HEAL DEAN'S CORPSE!!!?? OMG! OMG! I BET! OOOOOOOO! I BET IT'S PART OF CASTIEL'S! AND THAT'S WHY HE'S GOT LITTLE TWITCHES OF EMOTION AND DOUBTS AND STUFF!!! And, and... O.O EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! *FLAILS AND BEATS ON ARMS OF CHAIR AND SCARES CAT*
-*koff* I mean maybe. *shrugs nonchalantly and twitches a little. And possibly whimpers*
-Oooo! And look! Dean's face! He's thinking about it!! *flails more*
-Ooo, look. Treeeee. Cheesy light FX though. No reason a massive old oak can't look angelic all on its own merits. *nods*
-WTF? Turn over Anna or Dean goes down? ...Hunh. Okay... So... But... Hunh. Needs more pondering.
-Ooo. Nifty flashlight! That's new. *grabby hands*
-Oh. Dean. Wow. Every time I think I can't be any more amazed by Jensen Ackles' acting, he does something like that and blows my mind.
-Hee. Sex in the Impala. *blushes, giggles and hides behind notebook*
-*peeks* Hey, Dean took off the pendant. He hasn't done that on, uh, prior similar occasions. What's going on there... hm.
-*peeks* Handprint's still there... wrong arm though? No, no, the mirror confused me. That was an interesting gesture from Anna, was that sort of claiming, or reverent? I don't know.
-*snerk* Hand in the window fog. A Titanic reference? Seriously?? Or is it a reference to the invisible shower pervert? Either way? *snerk*
-What's Ruby up to...? Toasting a hex bag at a crossroads and summoning... (or making herself visible to...) Alastair? Oh ho! Plot thickens. Or... not. Hunh. Given that as far as Ruby knows, no one's watching what she's doing here? She's not working for Alastair. This is... hm. Well, one plotting option down, three or four to go.
-I hesitate to say anything, because I don't know if it's an impediment of the actor's or an acting choice he's made for the character, but Alastair's freaking lisp and line delivery is driving me up the wall. Maybe upper-level demons get to watch Marlon Brando movies in Hell. Did he call Sam 'dorky' or 'gawky' there?
-Hm. Okay, so whatever she's plotting, Anna's in the way now that she's remembered who she is. Also whatever Ruby's plotting involves both Sam and Dean. (I sure as hell hope she's plotting something.)
-Flunkies!! HEEE!! Hi flunkies! *waves like an idiot*
-"Cute when monkeys wear clothes." Just in case anyone's forgotten, Uriel is still an ass. And this is a dream or things would be a lot less cordial.
-Hee! Apparently aside from unexpected sudden trees and resurrected corpses, an angel's detached 'Grace' can also take the form of a Holy Glowstick. *nods*
-Angel food cake. Ken Doll. *massive facepalm* Uriel's doing a lot of giggling for an 'emotionless' angel... hm.
-Replaced. And Dean will totally believe that, nods like he always knew it, because he never believed he was worth bringing out of Hell in the first place, and has always had the self-esteem of a dyspeptic dung beetle. Deeeean.
-"Just gotta know where to apply the right pressure" ...SAM. Oh, CRAP! WTF COMMERCIALS??? *swats* Why don't we see that?! Uriel threatening Sam and Dean breaking! Where is the missing sceeeeeeeene!!! Yeah, that'd totally shift things around in Dean's standard operating procedure. Sam's top priority, hot angels are somewhere in the upper middle and as always, Dean's put himself down at the bottom. Oh Dean. *glares at Uriel*
-Random torture is... really random. And nonsensical. Again, how does interfering with the body a demon is wearing influence the demon? Like trying to get info by taking a stitch-ripper to someone's shirt. She can find (or make) another brain dead coma victim.
-Oh, it's her knife... so... not seeing flashy though, just seeing blood... Hm. This scene makes no sense. Go away. Seriously, Alastair could have saved himself a lot of work in his special little torture chamber, wherever it's at, if he'd just taken her through the nearest drive thru for a Biggie Size fries. Who the hell is she working for and how does this help their plot? Gaaaah.
-He hasn't been up here since 43. Is that BC, AD? What century? 43 BC was just after the assassination of Julius Caesar, 43 AD there were assorted Roman conquests going on, and in 1943, there's- oh. Second World War and concentration camps and... yeah. Probably 1943.
-Okay... She already said she'd give him Anna if he let her and the Winchesters go, so why-? Gah. This makes no sense. She certainly doesn't look too pained when she says "I'll show you." At this point I'm chalking it up to kinky games demons play to avoid getting homesick and moving on. *handwaves*
-Nice barn! And nicely hidden Impala. You can hardly see it behind the One Tree Hill/CW station mega-bugzilla. :-P
-Oh Dean. All getting smashed and shifty eyes and can't quite face Anna. Oh, Dean. It's not your fault Uriel plays dirty.
-If Uriel gives her back her Holy Glowstick now, because she surrendered? I may have to shoot something. It'd make a sort of sense, but it'd be so damn Hallmark-y
-Interesting looks from Castiel there... *ponders* Ooo... If Castiel falls it'll be because he's already given Dean some of his Holy Glowstick. *nods* Er. Or 'grace'. Because that sentence sounded WAAAAAY less pervy in my head. O.O
-Hi Alastair. Hm. Ruby's... bleeding and woozy. And yet dead and a demon, so... ooo. She's showing like she's actually injured so that the boys don't think she gave up Anna easily... Or maybe demons can't patch damage done to their meat-suits by Ruby's knife? In which case, Coma!Ruby is gonna be leaking like crazy for a while. And she's already got enough distractions running the autonomic systems manually.
-Hee! Yep, get out of the way, gang! Might also consider leaving the building, or perhaps the county.
-I love that Castiel is coming off as a billion times more badass than Uriel, just with freaking stance and line delivery. DAMN, dude! Misha Collins rocks!
-Combat! And yay for there being signs of something other than throwing each other's hosts around.
-Ooo. Alastair's too much for Castiel? And Ruby's whining that Sam couldn't make Alastair hork up his smoke. Geez.
-Eeek! Castiel! He looks so tiny when he's being choked! EEK! O.O
-YAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Dean says 'get offa my angel, asshole' with a, a, what is that, a crowbar? WOO! \o/ About as useful as poking a bear with a slightly minty toothpick, but at least it distracted Alastair. Now run, Dean.
-"You had such promise." Ah crap. Yeah, I'm wrong.
-Aw, Uriel flared out the flunkies. Damn! I was having fun with them. *pouts* Ah well, maybe these were spares and the other two were waiting downstairs for that chat. I'm kind of surprised none of the demons tried to grab Anna's Holy Glowstick from Uriel, it bouncing around like that, and it being implied that demons might be able to use it for something. But then I remember even in the show the lower echelon demons are about as astute as a mud puddle, and probably wouldn't think to grab it. *nods*
-Uh oh. Hm. An embodied and not re-instated angel taking back her 'grace' without it being granted back by her Boss? I do believe Anna's about to go boom. Yep. Anna go boom. Aw. Hm. Ooo. Is Alastair gone now too? Interesting that Ruby shielding her meat-suit's eyes kept her from getting blasted. And that Alastair was too stupid to shield his after she yelled about it. *ponders*
-Also,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
gekizetsu might be a wee bit psychic. Just sayin'.
-Hm. That was a little bit of lurching anger from Uriel, was it not? Emotionless my foot.
-That was planned? Or was Dean being sarcastic there... no... Seriously, that was all planned??? You guys are frigging NUTS!!! There could have been nothing but a smoking crater where you're standing now!!! o.O
-So then... Ruby's meeting with Alastair and getting tortured was part of the plan? And Dean giving up Anna to Uriel? ....Yah know, I'm kind of hoping he was being sarcastic after all and it wasn't planned at all. But... Gah. Needs more brain. *has headache*
-"Guess she's some big time angel now." ...Really? I kinda thought she went boom. I mean, how can you take back something by an act of will, if an act of will was what made you lose it in the first place. Unless there's a martyr/selfless act clause or something, but... *headscratch* I have no brains today. Anyways. If she's gone upstairs, she's going to have some serious spin-doctoring to do to her Boss. Or to her the head of the Angel Relations Department, since she's not one of the big four.
-Roadside beer... is starting to bug me. Roadside chats fine. Fantastic, even. The two boys out in the middle of nowhere with the Impala where no one else can hear is where major personal revelatio- erm... disclosures should happen. Just them, no secondary characters. Beer... *shrug* I guess they're planning on hanging out with the roadside shrubbery for a little while. Sigh. *has issues, moves on*
-Nothing left. Yep. Breaking down the humanity as represented by his memory-image of himself, and it comes back, every day, until he breaks. The memory-image that included the pendant Sam gave him. And... hm. *ponders*
-...Yeah. I'm wrong. Crap. *sighs* Regardless, though, at the very least, Dean's totally alive because some angel either burned out all or part of their essence/grace/mojo/Holy Glowstick/spleen/gas bladder/whatever and nuked the trees in the process. So, given what he was doing when Castiel and whatever angelic strike team yanked him out of hell? I might still be right! Sort of! From a different angle. Because guilt... Maybe? *sighs again and is depressed* Never mind.
-*is stunned* Ackles. DUDE. Holy CRAP! Whoa. That... whoa. Very visceral acting there, and that's fantastic because so much of what Dean is outside of his family is that he saves people, it's his job, and in a way he attaches some of his miniscule self-worth to it, or has in the past, and having that slowly eroded down over what seemed like years, ending in him taking actions and tearing apart people's souls in Hell, stuff that he probably could not conceive of before, outside of "things demons and evil things do" and really, being broken by Alastair and Hell and... Yeah. WOW. And I can guess what the final straw might have been on that, that pushed him over. Oh boys. *is incomprehensible and flails limply due to being completely over-awed*
-Are we getting a "SOON"? *braces for spoilers, finger hovering over 'mute'...* Nope, no "SOON" Phew.
-[Hey... is Metallicar moonlighting on GTA4?]
-UNEXPECTED NINJA PROMO! GAH! *hides, grabs at remotes, papers go flying, cat is freaked* Okay. Mostly safe. Gaaaah. Jeez! Just when I get used to one way, they change it. YOU WILL NOT GET ME, EVOL SPOILERS@!!! Heh.
I can no longer brain today.
SO. Some slightly whacked-out angel mechanics, some plot holes *handwaves* and a great big wallop of angst and new plotty bits. And we're in the Hiatus Zone until at least January. *glares at the AMPTP again*
Batten down the hatches, gang.
NO SPOILERS IN COMMENTS, OR REFERENCES TO ANY PROMOTIONAL MATERIAL OR PREVIEWS FOR UNAIRED EPISODES, PLEASE.
(Contains profanity)
Spoiler Timeline
-Oct 18: spnnewsletter. "Interview with Traci Dinwiddie (spoilers for upcoming episode(s))" *facepalm* The first spoiler being that she will be in upcoming episodes, which means her character will be in upcoming episodes. Which YESSSS!!! That's Pamela Barnes, right? I figured she had too much set-up and was too cool not to return.
-Oct 25: Because Kripke, bless his little cotton socks, cannot open his mouth without spoilers coming out, from the "Dean's not a dick" press release; Dean has a Deep Dark Secret, and we'll find out about it in 4.10. Right before a hiatus no doubt. Eeeeeeeek.
Okay, I'm in the minority, I guess, because when "Bloody Mary" aired and Dean's eyes bled? I didn't think that had anything to do with any secrets Dean might be harboring. I just figured she was out of her mirror, so she had less restrictions on her powers, and also, Dean was the one that broke her mirror. Or he'd lost someone he was trying to save, couldn't tell anyone about it. Or maybe he felt guilty for Jess's death since he didn't get there in time. Or whatever. Boy carries enough guilt around with him to attract a barge-load of ghosts and crap. I never thought "Ooo! Why did Dean's eyes bleed? Has he got deep dark secrets?" I figured Dean had more than enough stuff lurking around in his past and psyche to account for it.
So now, Dean's got a deep dark secret that makes ghosts who were secretly murdered by bullying assholes want to get him. This makes me very nervous. But, I kind of hope it's that teeny, wee Dean saw YED pinning Mary to the wall and ran back to his room because she told him to and secretly feels like he got Mary killed. Or not. Because if it's getting revealed right before a hiatus, which makes it possibly tie into mytharc... eeee. *has massive anxiety*
-Nov 6 IMDB while looking up some info for a prior episode. Sigh. There will be an episode called "Hell's Angels" O.O Oh man, is one- will- falling- fallen- eek. O.O No time to brain! Will brain later! Muuuuch later!
-Nov 9th Delayed processing of 4.09 spoiler, side effect. This one'll be Dean's missing four months. It's possibly the rescue, and the start of what Dean really remembers, and it's either going to confirm or disprove this theory. I like my theory living in ifs and maybes. At this point, I don't want to know if it's true or not now. I just want it to be possible. *is very nervous*
-Nov 10th Comment in Ratings thread at TWoP (which I should stop checking and get the ratings elsewhere, but there's colour commentary there and stuff about pre-emptions... Sigh.). Title of ep 4.10 has been changed from Hell's Angels to Heaven and Hell (what, biker gangs don't like Supernatural?)
All I gotta say about that? Is meep. My auto-speculating brain is shutting down in self-defense for this episode. The spec might drive me insane, and there's a hiatus to survive.
-Nov 11th Widely disseminated comments from Jim Beaver's Myspace. Bobby will not be in this episode. Another one where some kind of touchback to Bobby feels necessary, dammit. Any kind of touchback.
So! Guessing this episode will end with a giant "Whaaaaaat?!" followed by, what? Two months of hiatus hell?
So. On with it.
Reaction, Meta, Nitpickery, Bursts of Loud Speculation and Snark for Supernatural 4.10 - "Heaven and Hell"
...hunh. Good thing I built that hiatus bunker on my weekend off...
-Previously: Ooo! Hello, Pam! So is it this week, then? Nice thorough recap of last week. *nods*
-"You're some heartless sons of bitches, you know that?"/"As a matter of fact, we are. And?" Heh. I have this vague sense that maaaaybe Castiel's not too into this 'kill Anna' thing. It's his resigned face of angel woobie. Just a hunch. Call me nutty. Though that "And?" ...Hm. Also, uh... did Castiel just basically infer that God is a bitch? He is picking up bad habits from Dean.
-"She is faaar from innocent." And worse than Ruby. Oh really?? Hm. What's worse than a demon to an angel? Castiel looks so damn depressed in the background.
-Combat! With angels? Seriously? You guys are insane. Noble and stuff, I guess, but frigging insane.
-I love, absolutely love how Uriel's being all in-your-face brawly, and Castiel just walks calmly up to Sam and hits him with the angel fingers of 'you go sleep now thud'. I also love that Sam's calls him 'Cas' and looks so freaked that he's facing him down. I kind of wonder if they had Misha Collins walking along a bench or something to put him at the same height as Jared, though. Hee!
-Uriel really doesn't like Dean.... Hm. I wonder why? *ponders*
-OMG CASTIEL!!! Oh fuck! What was that? Door-handle-angels-get-nuked! Gah! O.O Okay, cool as Anna is, if she just permanently toasted Castiel, she's on my shit list forever. I doubt she did, maybe just shoved them out of the plane of Earth for a while, given the up and back visual thing, but that was quite alarming. Hunh. It appears I've gotten rather attached to Castiel. Not Bobby-level attached yet but... hell of a way to find out. I feel like my fur's standing on end. Also what the hell did Anna do??
-[Slow mo on rewatch: That was fantastic! Castiel's shadow gets big, develops wing shadows, then becomes his wings as he's blasted back. Uriel's shadow gets wings too, but they look... weird in the shadow, like almost skeletal, or like the, hehe, like his primary feathers are very long and really sparse, like he only has three or four. He'd fly like a bus. That was cool!! Well done FX crew!]
-Ooo, Anna's bleeding! Psychic thing like Sam? No, it's cuts. I love how, how... I don't know what, just perfect to the situation Dean sounds when he says, "Did you kill them?" Kind of shaky and incredulous and holy crap what just happened, and what is this person if she can kill angels?
-Ooo... drawing symbols in blood to ward off angels... That doesn't bode well. Ooo! She didn't kill them! She better not be lying! And she better not have sent them to the same 'far away' as Lilith sent Ruby, even though it does seem to have a revolving door policy.
-It just popped into her head, so she drew it on a mirror in her own blood. Hm. Popped into her head. Like angel voices do... Hm. *ponders*
-Ooo! Extra growling in the title sound after the scream, I think?
-Safe? BOBBY'S PLACE!!! APOCALYPSE BUNKER!!!! But... uh. Jim Beaver says he wasn't in this episode... *is suddenly alarmed* No, no, if Bobby was dying here, he'd have been there to be his corpse. *derails that thought train before it can go any further* But where's Bobby?
-Traci Dinwiddie. Aha! It is this episode she's back in. *clears floating spoiler*
-Yep. Don't show fear in front of the demon who's manipulating your brother. Even though you totally are.
-Keep an eye on her???? O.O Okay, yeah, well I guess since Anna's in the demon-proof room Ruby can't actually get at her, but... Gnh. That's a dangerous level of trust you're showing there, Dean.
-YAY! They got the car back from the hotel where Ruby said it was being watched by demons. Who either were still watching, had given up, or were never there and were a fabrication of Ruby's to get the boys to hop to and obey her. *ponders*
-Bobby in a trucker hat and a banana hammock. ...um. I'm kind of disturbed that I'm not finding that image more disturbing. o.O
-Hunh. Nobody wrote this. There's no 'Written by' credit. Story by Trevor Sands, Teleplay by Eric Kripke. Which AFAIK means Kripke adapted this guy's story or story idea to script, which seems... exceptionally odd. ...Is Trevor Sands a fanfic writer??? That'd be freaky. No, no... he's got other scripts for sci-fi stuff... hunh. Weird. If not a little alarming. Directed by J. Miller Tobin, who among other things directed "Born Under a Bad Sign" and "A Very Supernatural Christmas." Hm. Oddness abounds, possibly with extra blood and torturing, given "AVSC".
-Ooo! Clear pause on Anna's psych papers!: Connor Beverly Behavioral Medicine Center. Anna's D.O.B. is April 13, 198...5 I think?. Her Doctor's name is Regina Walters. The date she was admitted is September 10, 2008, er... eight days before Castiel yanked Dean out of Hell and she started hearing angels. Hunh. Don't know what may or may not be up with that. I call typo. Or misleading blur. *nods* 11/12/87 Admitted to South Central Hospital Pediatrics "He's not my real father" and "My real father is mad, very mad. He wants to kill me." [Rewatch: *facepalm* Oh.] They recommended giving her Valium but her folks said no. Which considering she was (if 1985 is right as her birth year) two and a half years old was probably wise of them. She was apparently in therapy from July 4th, 1988 to September 1st, 1994. Over eight years. That must've been fun. *is totally ignoring that the majority of the text on both sheets is exactly the same, down to the ragged right justification breaks* Also assorted form numbers and patient numbers I'm not going to transcribe, but would make good questions for a trivia quiz. *hugs the SPN art department* Yay, details!
-Okay, she was two and a half, thank you for the confirmation, Sam.
-"I'm watching her!" Hee. Okay, point for Ruby. Although it makes her seem more like a bored teenager and less like a demon plotting something... hm.
-"I would give anything to know." I'm thinking you probably really don't wanna know, Anna. Buuut you won't know that you don't wanna know until you do know. These things are kind of a pain in the butt that way. *nods sagely*
-Ooo! It's Pam! I can tell by the boots! Those are totally Pam boots! Yay Pam! \o/
-Hm... Pam caught up fast on the other-than-sight perception bus. She's only been blind for two months. That's... interesting....
-Oh really? White eyes, hunh? Ooo! Is she Lilith hiding in plain sight? She has to have shown Dean the eyes already, right? Does Sam know? If she isn't Lilith, will there be a tragic misunderstanding later? ...Oh, wait, she says demony. Hm. Still possible that she's Lilith in plain sight, maybe? Especially adding in that 'tell me what your deal is' bit. *ponders and is totally not paranoid at all*
-Hm. Sam and Dean kind of randomly lurking around in the background just observing stuff is... a little... Hm. Disconcerting. Like the script or director didn't know what to do with them so they just kind of stand around watching. A little like they're being sidelined. Hm. That'll pass, though... *frowns*
-Okay, maybe Pam's not Lilith, since she's in Bobby's safe room now. Unless Lilith is high enough in the hierarchy that she can bypass all the crap Bobby has going on in that bunker without flinching, in which case frigging EEEK!!! O.O
-How will this work in the safe room (incidentally, cool that the walls are starting to look rusty now, what with the salt-covered iron and all)? Oh. Okay. Just her internal memories, right. They aren't trying to hook up to Angel Wi-Fi and Google her, find out what her 'Wanted' poster says. So doing this in the bunker is just to keep things from getting at her while she's vulnerable. Sure. *nods and side-eyes Pam for being sufficiently 'adapted' to sightlessness to find Anna's head without hesitation there*
-Oooo! Psychic door slamming and lights exploding!! *flail* And Dean gets decked by a girl again, hee!
-It's getting kind of annoying me that the boys are relegated to being exposition triggers here with the feeder questions. But I guess it'll pay off once they have sufficient data. Yeah. *nods*
-Angel. ....Oookaaaay.... A fallen angel, which would make her a demon wouldn't it? Or maybe some kind of 'Sleeper Cell' Angel, in deep cover on Earth, which is why she's getting the signal but has lost the instructions on what to do when she hears it? But then why do Castiel and Uriel want to kill her? To free her from being body-bound? No, no, that doesn't jive at all. Unless she did fall, just not all the way down, in which case... Um... Doesn't that- Isn't she- Don't they... Hunh. That's.... Hunh. *processors locked up, please reboot brain*
-[Ozzy Osborne and Warcraft. Um. I'm seriously boggled by that, but it might just be because my brain's doing a cold restart.]
-Alright, so, she used to be in the same 'foxhole' as Castiel and Uriel, and says she used to be their immediate superior. (Which, really? Isn't Uriel supposed to be one of the top four? Makes her sound kind of Sue-ish, suddenly being so important, but whatever *handwaves*) And she disobeyed orders and fell, and now they want to kill her? That sounds like a major over-simplification to me. What was the order she disobeyed? When, why, and for whom did she disobey it? They themselves want to kill her, or they are operating under specific orders from On High, or is this a standing order to gank any rogues? And... gah. Many many questions. Must ponder faster. *ponders*
-"She fell to Earth, became human," clarifies Pamela... Really? *glances suspiciously* I'm not sure whether that was a case of 'boys acting as exposition triggers again' or a hint that Pam is showing knowledge she didn't have before, and that combined with the white eyes, the senses, and the little subtle pull-back she did when Anna said she was an angel... except that might have been because of her experience with the last one she talked to. Hm. Or maybe Bobby filled her in on angel mechanics since she'd probably want info on what burned out her eyes. Still. *glances suspiciously again*
-[Ya know, random, but I keep getting this feeling like Kripke used to play or GM a lot of 'In Nomine'...]
-She ripped out her what? Grace? Buh... hunh. Okay. So. I guess to an ethereal being, which is what I'd guess angels are when they aren't embodied, a state of grace could be like an internal organ. *nods* And I mean really, 'grace' isn't a bad name for an internal organ (I mean, look at the spleen. Only, y'know, not really because that would involve self-surgery and that would make a mess of the keyboard), not a bad name at all, just a little confusing. So, metaphorically speaking, the grace of God is metaphorically like an internal organ to an angel, and without it they Fall. Hm. Yeah, that works. I think.
-And falling entails being reborn as a human. Hm. Which would kind of equate to being reincarnated, sort of, in a lower state to learn some lesson so as to get back in to a state of enlightenment, or something, I guess? *brain overheating*
-Stanley Cup. Ha! *pats the cute little Canadian content*
-Get it back. If she can find it. Uhhhh.... okay, getting the impression that that's not an extended 're-attain a higher state of being' euphemism now... so... we aren't speaking metaphorically then, and this isn't 'getting off God's naughty list through self-discovery, good works, enlightenment, and abnegation of the self', and they're gonna hunt up an angel spleen... Hunh. That's kind of cracktacular. Who let Edlund into the cosmogony? Ohhh. It was Edlund's idea to make demons formerly humans, wasn't it? Hm. Oh well. *shrugs* Okay then! So an angel's grace is a locatable thing. And a discorporate internal organ of rough (and probably blasphemous) similarity to a fish's gas bladder. Because that's the way angels work in the SPN universe. Oookay. *tests suspension of disbelief* Sure. Let's go out and find that puppy!
-And of course since we're hunting angel organs that equate to states of divine empowerment, of course the falling part is literal. Like twin meteors. Heh. Ya know, there was a major meteor seen near the Alberta Saskatchewan border the night this aired. Actually... hunh. Holy crap. I think I saw that thing! I did! There were two really bright lights in the sky in that direction at about the time it would have fallen, one was falling faster than the other. I figured the local air base was doing an exercise of some sort and had fired off some star-shells. I would have been seeing that from 1200KM (720miles) away, and over two mountain ranges... Heh. Wow. That's freaky. O.O
-So aaaaanyway, my UFO encounters aside, this apparently puts Heaven (or wherever the angels live) somewhere up in the literal sky in the SPN verse.
-March '85, meteor vanished, which was nine months before Anna was born... except her medical record said she was born in April '85. But I'm totally okay with handwaving that, because I have family members with two birthdates and once knew a guy who was legally dead for years, so Vital Statistics Records friggery and slop doesn't phase me too much.
-So, why did she fall? *quickly scans 1985 in Wikipedia, just in case* Hm. Nothing jumps out as possible 'angel disobeyed an order' items in March... However, if April '85 was her actual birthdate and she had fallen nine months before in July '85, around the time Anna and her 'grace' fell to Earth, there was a lightning strike at York Minster Cathedral. Maybe she smote someone that God didn't want... Smoted? Smitten? Unauthorized smiting on Holy Ground. *nods* Hm. Or attempting to stop or interfere with an authorized smiting, since Uriel's a little... enthusiastic... about smiting. It bears pondering. *nudges the beginnings of a mutant plot bunny into the wild*
-Okay, Genvieve Cortese is doing better at the whole actually seeming like she's awake and part of the scene. She's at least looking in a logical direction while in the background. There have been several times this episode where she's been on the screen and talking and I haven't been excessively annoyed. Hm. This may be a sign of the Apocalypse.... Whoops, no, wait, there she goes again. She's in coma-mode and mumbling. No Apocalypse today.
-Ooo. What does Sam have to do?? Please let it not be boink Ruby. That would be horribly trite, not to mention major league wank-fuel. I'm sure the implication that that's what it might be is solely a subjective one, and what Sam actually would have to do is something more palatable like a blood sacrifice or something. *nods*
-"It was... after I fell." Okay. So. Not some kind of 'fated from birth' thing, since Dean was born in 1979, and not some kind of 'fated from the fire' thing, because that was in 1983... Hm. Unless Anna and her crew were just out of the loop. *ponders*
-She fell because of emotions? Angels don't get emotions? So... Angels are... Vulcans? Hunh. Odd. So Heaven isn't just in the sky, it's a desert planet circling 40 Eridani A, and angels have green blood. Or not. No emotions, though, eh? Castiel seemed to have an emotional response or two... he smiled, and I swear there was a titch of a sneer there once... hm... Maybe Dean's infecting him. Or... *ponders*
-No choice, only obedience. Ah. So the free will thing is not externally imposed, they can disobey and they have the capacity for free will.,. So, angels don't have free will because they won't be angels anymore if they do. Interesting.
-Four have seen God. Yep. And if the show's following the same wiki page I am, Uriel's one of them. But who knows, maybe he's not that Uriel, considering Uriel's supposed to be one of the big four and Anna's saying she was his boss once. Uriel could be a very common name among the angels in this 'verse, all named after the big famous one. Like all the kids getting named Justin and Britney in 2001. *nods*
-Heee! Fathers! Heee. Yeah. Dean understands. Your Dad's God, his Dad's John Winchester.
-"Grace ground zero." Detached 'Grace' landing brings sudden... life. OH FUCK. *INCOHERENT FLAPPY HANDS* BIG TUNGUSKA BLAST!! WHO GAVE UP THEIR GRACE TO HEAL DEAN'S CORPSE!!!?? OMG! OMG! I BET! OOOOOOOO! I BET IT'S PART OF CASTIEL'S! AND THAT'S WHY HE'S GOT LITTLE TWITCHES OF EMOTION AND DOUBTS AND STUFF!!! And, and... O.O EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! *FLAILS AND BEATS ON ARMS OF CHAIR AND SCARES CAT*
-*koff* I mean maybe. *shrugs nonchalantly and twitches a little. And possibly whimpers*
-Oooo! And look! Dean's face! He's thinking about it!! *flails more*
-Ooo, look. Treeeee. Cheesy light FX though. No reason a massive old oak can't look angelic all on its own merits. *nods*
-WTF? Turn over Anna or Dean goes down? ...Hunh. Okay... So... But... Hunh. Needs more pondering.
-Ooo. Nifty flashlight! That's new. *grabby hands*
-Oh. Dean. Wow. Every time I think I can't be any more amazed by Jensen Ackles' acting, he does something like that and blows my mind.
-Hee. Sex in the Impala. *blushes, giggles and hides behind notebook*
-*peeks* Hey, Dean took off the pendant. He hasn't done that on, uh, prior similar occasions. What's going on there... hm.
-*peeks* Handprint's still there... wrong arm though? No, no, the mirror confused me. That was an interesting gesture from Anna, was that sort of claiming, or reverent? I don't know.
-*snerk* Hand in the window fog. A Titanic reference? Seriously?? Or is it a reference to the invisible shower pervert? Either way? *snerk*
-What's Ruby up to...? Toasting a hex bag at a crossroads and summoning... (or making herself visible to...) Alastair? Oh ho! Plot thickens. Or... not. Hunh. Given that as far as Ruby knows, no one's watching what she's doing here? She's not working for Alastair. This is... hm. Well, one plotting option down, three or four to go.
-I hesitate to say anything, because I don't know if it's an impediment of the actor's or an acting choice he's made for the character, but Alastair's freaking lisp and line delivery is driving me up the wall. Maybe upper-level demons get to watch Marlon Brando movies in Hell. Did he call Sam 'dorky' or 'gawky' there?
-Hm. Okay, so whatever she's plotting, Anna's in the way now that she's remembered who she is. Also whatever Ruby's plotting involves both Sam and Dean. (I sure as hell hope she's plotting something.)
-Flunkies!! HEEE!! Hi flunkies! *waves like an idiot*
-"Cute when monkeys wear clothes." Just in case anyone's forgotten, Uriel is still an ass. And this is a dream or things would be a lot less cordial.
-Hee! Apparently aside from unexpected sudden trees and resurrected corpses, an angel's detached 'Grace' can also take the form of a Holy Glowstick. *nods*
-Angel food cake. Ken Doll. *massive facepalm* Uriel's doing a lot of giggling for an 'emotionless' angel... hm.
-Replaced. And Dean will totally believe that, nods like he always knew it, because he never believed he was worth bringing out of Hell in the first place, and has always had the self-esteem of a dyspeptic dung beetle. Deeeean.
-"Just gotta know where to apply the right pressure" ...SAM. Oh, CRAP! WTF COMMERCIALS??? *swats* Why don't we see that?! Uriel threatening Sam and Dean breaking! Where is the missing sceeeeeeeene!!! Yeah, that'd totally shift things around in Dean's standard operating procedure. Sam's top priority, hot angels are somewhere in the upper middle and as always, Dean's put himself down at the bottom. Oh Dean. *glares at Uriel*
-Random torture is... really random. And nonsensical. Again, how does interfering with the body a demon is wearing influence the demon? Like trying to get info by taking a stitch-ripper to someone's shirt. She can find (or make) another brain dead coma victim.
-Oh, it's her knife... so... not seeing flashy though, just seeing blood... Hm. This scene makes no sense. Go away. Seriously, Alastair could have saved himself a lot of work in his special little torture chamber, wherever it's at, if he'd just taken her through the nearest drive thru for a Biggie Size fries. Who the hell is she working for and how does this help their plot? Gaaaah.
-He hasn't been up here since 43. Is that BC, AD? What century? 43 BC was just after the assassination of Julius Caesar, 43 AD there were assorted Roman conquests going on, and in 1943, there's- oh. Second World War and concentration camps and... yeah. Probably 1943.
-Okay... She already said she'd give him Anna if he let her and the Winchesters go, so why-? Gah. This makes no sense. She certainly doesn't look too pained when she says "I'll show you." At this point I'm chalking it up to kinky games demons play to avoid getting homesick and moving on. *handwaves*
-Nice barn! And nicely hidden Impala. You can hardly see it behind the One Tree Hill/CW station mega-bugzilla. :-P
-Oh Dean. All getting smashed and shifty eyes and can't quite face Anna. Oh, Dean. It's not your fault Uriel plays dirty.
-If Uriel gives her back her Holy Glowstick now, because she surrendered? I may have to shoot something. It'd make a sort of sense, but it'd be so damn Hallmark-y
-Interesting looks from Castiel there... *ponders* Ooo... If Castiel falls it'll be because he's already given Dean some of his Holy Glowstick. *nods* Er. Or 'grace'. Because that sentence sounded WAAAAAY less pervy in my head. O.O
-Hi Alastair. Hm. Ruby's... bleeding and woozy. And yet dead and a demon, so... ooo. She's showing like she's actually injured so that the boys don't think she gave up Anna easily... Or maybe demons can't patch damage done to their meat-suits by Ruby's knife? In which case, Coma!Ruby is gonna be leaking like crazy for a while. And she's already got enough distractions running the autonomic systems manually.
-Hee! Yep, get out of the way, gang! Might also consider leaving the building, or perhaps the county.
-I love that Castiel is coming off as a billion times more badass than Uriel, just with freaking stance and line delivery. DAMN, dude! Misha Collins rocks!
-Combat! And yay for there being signs of something other than throwing each other's hosts around.
-Ooo. Alastair's too much for Castiel? And Ruby's whining that Sam couldn't make Alastair hork up his smoke. Geez.
-Eeek! Castiel! He looks so tiny when he's being choked! EEK! O.O
-YAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Dean says 'get offa my angel, asshole' with a, a, what is that, a crowbar? WOO! \o/ About as useful as poking a bear with a slightly minty toothpick, but at least it distracted Alastair. Now run, Dean.
-"You had such promise." Ah crap. Yeah, I'm wrong.
-Aw, Uriel flared out the flunkies. Damn! I was having fun with them. *pouts* Ah well, maybe these were spares and the other two were waiting downstairs for that chat. I'm kind of surprised none of the demons tried to grab Anna's Holy Glowstick from Uriel, it bouncing around like that, and it being implied that demons might be able to use it for something. But then I remember even in the show the lower echelon demons are about as astute as a mud puddle, and probably wouldn't think to grab it. *nods*
-Uh oh. Hm. An embodied and not re-instated angel taking back her 'grace' without it being granted back by her Boss? I do believe Anna's about to go boom. Yep. Anna go boom. Aw. Hm. Ooo. Is Alastair gone now too? Interesting that Ruby shielding her meat-suit's eyes kept her from getting blasted. And that Alastair was too stupid to shield his after she yelled about it. *ponders*
-Also,
gekizetsu might be a wee bit psychic. Just sayin'.-Hm. That was a little bit of lurching anger from Uriel, was it not? Emotionless my foot.
-That was planned? Or was Dean being sarcastic there... no... Seriously, that was all planned??? You guys are frigging NUTS!!! There could have been nothing but a smoking crater where you're standing now!!! o.O
-So then... Ruby's meeting with Alastair and getting tortured was part of the plan? And Dean giving up Anna to Uriel? ....Yah know, I'm kind of hoping he was being sarcastic after all and it wasn't planned at all. But... Gah. Needs more brain. *has headache*
-"Guess she's some big time angel now." ...Really? I kinda thought she went boom. I mean, how can you take back something by an act of will, if an act of will was what made you lose it in the first place. Unless there's a martyr/selfless act clause or something, but... *headscratch* I have no brains today. Anyways. If she's gone upstairs, she's going to have some serious spin-doctoring to do to her Boss. Or to her the head of the Angel Relations Department, since she's not one of the big four.
-Roadside beer... is starting to bug me. Roadside chats fine. Fantastic, even. The two boys out in the middle of nowhere with the Impala where no one else can hear is where major personal revelatio- erm... disclosures should happen. Just them, no secondary characters. Beer... *shrug* I guess they're planning on hanging out with the roadside shrubbery for a little while. Sigh. *has issues, moves on*
-Nothing left. Yep. Breaking down the humanity as represented by his memory-image of himself, and it comes back, every day, until he breaks. The memory-image that included the pendant Sam gave him. And... hm. *ponders*
-...Yeah. I'm wrong. Crap. *sighs* Regardless, though, at the very least, Dean's totally alive because some angel either burned out all or part of their essence/grace/mojo/Holy Glowstick/spleen/gas bladder/whatever and nuked the trees in the process. So, given what he was doing when Castiel and whatever angelic strike team yanked him out of hell? I might still be right! Sort of! From a different angle. Because guilt... Maybe? *sighs again and is depressed* Never mind.
-*is stunned* Ackles. DUDE. Holy CRAP! Whoa. That... whoa. Very visceral acting there, and that's fantastic because so much of what Dean is outside of his family is that he saves people, it's his job, and in a way he attaches some of his miniscule self-worth to it, or has in the past, and having that slowly eroded down over what seemed like years, ending in him taking actions and tearing apart people's souls in Hell, stuff that he probably could not conceive of before, outside of "things demons and evil things do" and really, being broken by Alastair and Hell and... Yeah. WOW. And I can guess what the final straw might have been on that, that pushed him over. Oh boys. *is incomprehensible and flails limply due to being completely over-awed*
-Are we getting a "SOON"? *braces for spoilers, finger hovering over 'mute'...* Nope, no "SOON" Phew.
-[Hey... is Metallicar moonlighting on GTA4?]
-UNEXPECTED NINJA PROMO! GAH! *hides, grabs at remotes, papers go flying, cat is freaked* Okay. Mostly safe. Gaaaah. Jeez! Just when I get used to one way, they change it. YOU WILL NOT GET ME, EVOL SPOILERS@!!! Heh.
I can no longer brain today.
SO. Some slightly whacked-out angel mechanics, some plot holes *handwaves* and a great big wallop of angst and new plotty bits. And we're in the Hiatus Zone until at least January. *glares at the AMPTP again*
Batten down the hatches, gang.
NO SPOILERS IN COMMENTS, OR REFERENCES TO ANY PROMOTIONAL MATERIAL OR PREVIEWS FOR UNAIRED EPISODES, PLEASE.
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Many many questions. Must ponder faster. *ponders* LOL *joins pondering*
So, metaphorically speaking, the grace of God is metaphorically like an internal organ to an angel, and without it they Fall. Hm. Yeah, that works. I think. Oh, man, it does sound silly when you actually type it out, doesn't it? O_O
Ooo. What does Sam have to do?? That is exactly the same thought process I had, down to a T. If it turns out that all he had to do was practice I'm going to be pissed. But the wording was ambiguous...
Uriel could be a very common name among the angels in this 'verse, all named after the big famous one you *points* are awesome *nods*
WHO GAVE UP THEIR GRACE TO HEAL DEAN'S CORPSE I stand corrected: You are several kinds of awesome. I had totally not thought of that!!
Holy Glowstick *koff* can you imagine the jokes on set? *huge grin*
On second re-watch, Castiel's "we're heartless" sounds even more ominous. He means that literally! You know, they can have him fall, keep him angelic, as long as they keep Misha Collins around. I'm getting ridiculously attached. Has another guest character ever gotten such an interesting storyarc? Ava had a nice progression, but she was only there twice. Mmmh, Jo got some growth, but nothing that kept me guessing. Bobby got backstory, but not actual growth. John? I don't consider John a guest, even though Jeffrey Dean wasn't much around. Meh, I'll stop now, before I spam you further ;-P
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Many things do. *nods*
I had totally not thought of that!!
Isn't it a nifty thought? Of course, now that I've pointed it out I'll be totally wrong again. :-P
*koff* can you imagine the jokes on set? *huge grin*
Hee! Actually my current mental image is of Uriel gettin' funky at a techno dance club. It's a rather frightning image... o.O
You know, they can have him fall, keep him angelic, as long as they keep Misha Collins around. I'm getting ridiculously attached.
Oh totally. I have no idea what it is, it's just... wanna keep him. That and seriously with very little change in tone or stance he goes from kind of detached and ethereal to dangerous entity not to be messed with. It's frigging fascinating! I am so looking forward to hearing con reports from the first con Misha Collins guests at. He's going to be utterly astounded, I think.
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hehehe Misha at a con... Oh, dear, I giggle at everything now... pretty soon I'm gonna start dooddling hearts around his name!
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hehehe Misha at a con...
I know! He's supposed to be attending one somewhere, sometime, I saw someone freaking about it a while back. Asylum, maybe?He'll be blown away by fan reaction to him, I think.
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It means Kripke took some core idea - girl talking or hearing angels - or something in regards to Alistair's implication he was a Nazi - or even Dean having sex in the back seat - and used it a frame for the mytharc. Because only Kripke would have known the framework for Dean's secret. I've noticed he gives story credits on all his scripts. I think it's guilt over getting all the other credits too.
RE: Barnes - In another interview where she is asked and answers if she appears in more episodes (so spoiler, don't read) she says that the note Kripke gave her for Barnes is that she is a fandom avatar and is supposed to represent the typical SPN fangirl. She must be "kick-ass" and "very flirty" and "not shy about her opinions". So HEE.
Now I will do my happy snoopy dance because I was right!
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Ahhh, I see. Makes sense.
Barnes is that she is a fandom avatar and is supposed to represent the typical SPN fangirl
...seriously? That's... extremely disappointing to me actually. Extremely disappointing. Damn. I wish I didn't know that.
ETA: Now I will do my happy snoopy dance because I was right!
Yeah, yeah, and I was wrong. Rub it in. ;-P
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Why does Barnes disappoint you now?
Also - re: Ruby. Maybe demons learn their snarky goodness from their host. So Ruby's just barely clinging to her humanity and she's got no one in there to give her a cue how to express herself.
This would explain why she's better at it when she's in other people. *nod nod*
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It's hard to explain. Because the character concept is designed around what she is to viewers and not who she is as a character in the world. It's not "You're a psychic, you work with hunters, there's a tragedy in your past, which you cover questions about by being agressively flirty, etc, etc", it's "you've got these qualities because that's what our fans are like."
It just feels like I've been manipulated into liking the character, I guess. It's a cardboard cut-out with 'fangirl' on it instead of 'love interest' or whatever. I will admit she is doing an awesome job of working with what she's been given, but I'm no longer much interested in her or her backstory, because they're coming from that template, and likely to have little bearing on the storyline.
Mainly, knowing that external-to-show basis for the character takes me out of the story in a rather large way; it takes away from my suspension of disbelief, because she's an element that's deliberately designed with that level of meta commentary on the fandom. Instead of an 'author-insertion character' Mary-Sue, she's a 'Fandom-insertion character' Mary-Sue, in a way, and knowing this is probably going to make me much more aware of Sue-ish tendencies in her, and drop me mentally out of the story whenever she shows up. Also, I'm a bit affronted because not all their fans are like that; personally, I'm about as flirty as a busted toaster. :-)
However, I do find it interesting that Kripke chose to blind his 'fandom avatar' and I'm wondering what sort of statement that might be.
So Ruby's just barely clinging to her humanity and she's got no one in there to give her a cue how to express herself.
That's another good thought. No reference material. *nods*
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There were rumors that the part was actually originally intended to be Missouri. But she was definitely created for the story first. That they would go to a psychic first and her eyes would be burnt and later she'd help them again. That was story before it was cast.
It was just her personality once given a plot, is based on fangirls.
To quote that portion of the interview:
Think about it, PB is like a kick-ass fan. She's loyal to her "band" and she flirts with the gusto of the SNF too! I've seen some of your wicked little comments about the J's and even our sweet Misha C. You're some unapologetic flirts!! Also, Pamela Barnes loves a good laugh, but will lock it down when business needs tending. She's serious AND cheeky. She's simply written that way. I just pull those bold parts of myself forward to become her.
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That was more or less my reaction, also.
Who let Edlund into the cosmogony?
*sporfle*
And a discorporate internal organ of rough (and probably blasphemous) similarity to a fish's gas bladder.
*sporfles again and almost inhales gum*
(I sure as hell hope she's plotting something.)
*joins you in hoping* Please, Show, please!
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Any plotting for any side would be good. *nods*
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But you are much better at expressing things than I am. Also quit liked And she's already got enough distractions running the autonomic systems manually. That made me start wondering about how much attention she does have to pay to keep the body running. Maybe that explains her usual coma-mode? Probably not.
Liked your idea about Castiel using some of his grace to revive Dean. And Jensen in those last few minutes totally blew me away. Man is awesome. It's going to be a long hiatus. I'm hoping maybe we're done with major mytharc for a bit and can get back to some saving people, hunting things.
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Yep. I went on about the possible mechanics of it for half the 4.09 reaction and have kind of adopted that theory as a way to keep my head from exploding when Coma!Ruby's on-screen. She was doing better this time out, but there's bound to be a learning curve. Really though? I doubt it. But it makes a handy handwave.
I'm hoping maybe we're done with major mytharc for a bit and can get back to some saving people, hunting things.
I'm thinking possibly. Winchesters usually go back to basics for a little while after a big bout of angst and sharing.
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Hee.
Emotionless my foot.
Yeahhh, not so much.
This is as far as I am now (I have to get some sleep, alas.) And I am Not Pleased. Between the problematic, unclear acting of Genevieve Cortese, the Grace-Spleen, the denial of text (angels have no emotions? So why are they emoting??) I just didn't like this episode. Not only were the plot-holes large, but overall story telling was muddled.
Except for the last bit, of course, when Jensen Ackles hit it out of the ballpark with his confession of what happened to Dean in Hell. Daaaamn. Um, so to speak.
Then, too, watching ALL of SPN in roughly 3 weeks gives one ... a certain perspective, and there will, I rather suspect, be a post from me relatively soonish about series television as a storytelling medium. (I only have training as a stage director, so my thoughts are primarily from an audience perspective. But still.) Then, too, I think part of the trouble I'm having is that Kripke & Ko. are now trying to tell a story that's much bigger than in seasons past and I'm just not sure how well they're succeeding overall.
Anyway, I'll ponder this some more. I imagine you'll see me pop up in some more of your old season 4 posts as I finish playing catch up, as I enjoy your responses. :)
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Oh absolutely. Jensen is an amazing actor, and I hope he has a long and varied career ahead of him.
there will, I rather suspect, be a post from me relatively soonish about series television as a storytelling medium. (I only have training as a stage director, so my thoughts are primarily from an audience perspective. But still.)
Ooo, cool!
Then, too, I think part of the trouble I'm having is that Kripke & Ko. are now trying to tell a story that's much bigger than in seasons past and I'm just not sure how well they're succeeding overall.
I think it's just that the epic background stuff has got more emphasis now and come into the foreground. Kripke has said that he's drawing on the Joseph Campbell Hero's Cycle (also known as Monomyth) theory for some of the aspects of the show. The mytharc structure of the series has been there all along, just not as overt as it's become.
Part of why season 1 is so much different than the others is it was aired on the WB, and no one was sure if the series would get picked up by the new CW network which at that point didn't even have a name. (That first hiatus was utter hell, not knowing if the car wreck would be where everything ended) Putting a lot of investment into in-depth mytharc at that point wouldn't be of much use if the show didn't last past "Shadow" which was the stopping place of it's original half-season pickup.
There are hints of the mytharc all through, and in Season 4 quite a few things from past seasons are getting picked up and pointed out. I think it's awesome, myself. It's a bit of a gear change, but I've always loved the mytharc and background "something epice is happening" hints that have been sprinkled through the first three seasons. It's just that the show now has it's epic stuff out in the open.
But yes, season 4 is a very different-feeling show than season 1.
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But hopefully this is really just my cranky-pants talking because I didn't like 4.10. I'm sure I'll watch at least 11 and 12 tomorrow, so mayhap my opinion will have completely changed and I will (hopefully) be back to Rah! Rah! Rah!ing. :D
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I have this vague sense that maaaaybe Castiel's not too into this 'kill Anna' thing. It's his resigned face of angel woobie. Just a hunch. Call me nutty.
Castiel is so on the ‘human’ side in all this. He’s bonding with the boys, or at least with Dean. While Uriel is a creep!
"He's not my real father" and "My real father is mad, very mad. He wants to kill me." [Rewatch: *facepalm* Oh.]
Um, okay, starting to get very twitchy at the portrayal of God here. I’m part of the God=Love way of thinking, rather than the God=smiting, so an angry God who wants to kill disobedient children, that’s just so pre-Jesus.
Pam caught up fast on the other-than-sight perception bus. She's only been blind for two months. That's... interesting....
She is a psychic, so she was already using “sight” beyond eye-sight. That would have given her a head start.
Angel. ....Oookaaaay.... A fallen angel, which would make her a demon wouldn't it?
I went and checked out my Catechism of the Catholic Church for help. (Have to go to the Catholics for this, because for them angels are an article of faith. My church can take them or leave them, and I personally think both angels and demons are metaphors.) It was full of informative things like: “Angels and men (sic), as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey towards their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray” (311) and “The Church teaches that Satan was first a good angel, made by God: ‘The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally by God, but they became evil by their own doing.’” (391) and “This ‘fall’ consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign” (392).
And she disobeyed orders and fell, and now they want to kill her? That sounds like a major over-simplification to me. What was the order she disobeyed? When, why, and for whom did she disobey it? They themselves want to kill her, or they are operating under specific orders from On High, or is this a standing order to gank any rogues?
All very good questions. But I do love that Anna Milton fell through disobedience. Yay for the shoutout to Paradise Lost!
"She fell to Earth, became human," clarifies Pamela...
Huh. This is Charmed, white-lighter stuff.
She ripped out her what? Grace? Buh... hunh. Okay. So. I guess to an ethereal being, which is what I'd guess angels are when they aren't embodied, a state of grace could be like an internal organ. *nods* … And falling entails being reborn as a human. Hm. Which would kind of equate to being reincarnated, sort of, in a lower state to learn some lesson so as to get back in to a state of enlightenment, or something, I guess? … Because that's the way angels work in the SPN universe. Oookay. *tests suspension of disbelief* Sure. Let's go out and find that puppy!
Um, not sure how this works since angels are spiritual, non-corporeal beings. So a non-corporeal “organ” is ripped out of a non-corporeal body? Being reborn as human? I don’t think that works in ‘official’ angelology, because angels and human are two separate orders of creation. But, anyway …
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Which he’s been doing using coma girl’s dead body – ugh. Did he stop when Dean came back?
She fell because of emotions? Angels don't get emotions?
Huh? Again, turning to the Catholics, apparently angels are full of love. They literally “adore” Jesus – that’s part of their role in life. They care for and protect human beings. And given the nature of God, love and forgiveness should be as much a part of their lives as of human lives, even if chocolate cake and sex (love the order Anna gives them in) aren’t.
Four have seen God. Yep. And if the show's following the same wiki page I am, Uriel's one of them.
Okay, this is the point at which the SPN-verse definitely leaves Christianity behind. For one thing, Christianity is all about the Incarnation and the Trinity, so God is intimately present, first incarnate as Jesus, then through the Holy Spirit who is God’s continuing presence with humanity. So, if God hasn’t been seen for millennia, we’re not in a Christian world. Then there’s the idea that only four angels have seen God face to face. Again, not in mainstream Christianity. All the way through I had a hymn teasing at the edge of my consciousness and I eventually realised that it’s “Praise, my Soul, the King of Heaven” which includes the lines: “Angels help us to adore him; you perceive Him face to face”. So, I didn’t like this at all. But yasminke tells me it’s probably kabbalah, and is going to do some research for me, so I just need to switch off the Christian theologian bit of my brain and enjoy Show for what it is. Which isn’t theology.
Heee! Fathers! Heee. Yeah. Dean understands. Your Dad's God, his Dad's John Winchester.
Just, Yes.
Hee. Sex in the Impala. *blushes, giggles and hides behind notebook*
Me too. This seems like a very personal moment. Not sure I should be watching.
Replaced. And Dean will totally believe that, nods like he always knew it, because he never believed he was worth bringing out of Hell in the first place, and has always had the self-esteem of a dyspeptic dung beetle. Deeeean.
Load of crap. Dean is irreplaceable and Uriel is a creep.
”Just gotta know where to apply the right pressure" ...SAM.
And again. Uriel is a creep. I don’t believe in him as an angel. Definitely not as one of the big four.
"Guess she's some big time angel now." ...Really? I kinda thought she went boom. I mean, how can you take back something by an act of will, if an act of will was what made you lose it in the first place. Unless there's a martyr/selfless act clause or something, but...
So, maybe there is forgiveness in the angelic universe? Anna fell, but decides to take up the burden of being an angel again and is allowed to – that sounds like some sort of forgiveness for disobedience there.
and that's fantastic because so much of what Dean is outside of his family is that he saves people, it's his job, and in a way he attaches some of his miniscule self-worth to it, or has in the past, and having that slowly eroded down over what seemed like years, ending in him taking actions and tearing apart people's souls in Hell, stuff that he probably could not conceive of before, outside of "things demons and evil things do" and really, being broken by Alastair and Hell and...
Oh, my God, yes.
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As a fellow spoilerphobe, I am honour-bound to say nothing either way. :-)
Okay, this is the point at which the SPN-verse definitely leaves Christianity behind.
It's definitely a non-New Testament cosmogony they're drawing from. Viewing the show this season from within a strongly religious standpoint would rankle in many spots, I think. Maintaining objectivity in the face of feeling like your belief system is being misrepresented is always tough. The Wiccans have certainly had a hard time of it.
I just need to switch off the Christian theologian bit of my brain and enjoy Show for what it is. Which isn’t theology.
Yes, exactly. I think Show not being theology is probably a good thing. But at the same time, the Christian theologian perspective is a fascinating one. :-) There's apparently an article on it up somewhere (spoilers through 4.22, unfortunately) delving into the representation of Judeo-Christian stuff on the show.
Load of crap. Dean is irreplaceable and Uriel is a creep.
Oh definitely.
So, maybe there is forgiveness in the angelic universe? Anna fell, but decides to take up the burden of being an angel again and is allowed to – that sounds like some sort of forgiveness for disobedience there.
It sort of does... but... Um. Hard to say. *koff*
So, when do you get the rest of the episodes? ;-)
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Lilith, on the other hand, is Jewish haggadah, so I don't have so much invested in her, and Castiel is traditional rather than biblical, so I can just enjoy him as a character.
(And part of me is a wee bit worried that some people will think that this is Christianity. I guess Wiccans would have the same problem.)
We're now seeing an episode a week - last night was 4.11 without any hiatus.
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And it would be tough for you, because, to over-simplify, it's part of your job and daily life to know these things. If show started throwing Canadian tax preparation or bookkeeping around I'd be disoriented too. Actually a lot of people would likely be disriented. o.O
(And part of me is a wee bit worried that some people will think that this is Christianity. I guess Wiccans would have the same problem.)
Yeah, that would be the heart of it. Same as Islamic faiths being depicted in political thriller series and movies. It's clear to most that fiction is one thing and reality is another, but to some who are looking for any reason to hold a prejudice or maintain a closed mind... yeah. :-/
We're now seeing an episode a week - last night was 4.11 without any hiatus.
You've seen 4.11 then?
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It might just be because I've been sitting at this desk working on Sunday's service for hours and I'm a little stir-crazy, but this almost made me fall off my chair laughing. Yes - I want Show to have the boys doing their taxes! Or doing someone else's taxes. Let one of their false identities come back and bite them with tax avoidance issues!
You've seen 4.11 then?
Yes, and (I say proudly) about ten minutes in I texted yasminke and said: "She's the incestuous daughter of the dead daughter and her now-dead father and she's been hidden in the walls - or am I just remembering that case in Austria?" And then I was right and Dean referenced the Austrian case. But I didn't pick up the brother.
The part at the end, with Dean? They've broken Dean! I don't believe he freely "enjoyed" it - they broke him. And I just want to hug him and make him all better. Can't Castiel do some heavy-duty forgiving round about now?
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*snerk* It'd really take something for the IRS to track them down.
But I didn't pick up the brother.
I picked him up when the camera flashed past that drawing on the wall in the basement and there were two figures in blood.
The part at the end, with Dean? They've broken Dean! I don't believe he freely "enjoyed" it - they broke him. And I just want to hug him and make him all better. Can't Castiel do some heavy-duty forgiving round about now?
*says nothing* *says a whoooooole lot of nothing*
So, a week at a time, hm?
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Depictions of real-world religions and deities on TV shows always make me twitchy, because it's someone's deeply held belief system. Show hasn't done the Wiccans and Pagans any favours either.
I went and checked out my Catechism of the Catholic Church for help. (Have to go to the Catholics for this, because for them angels are an article of faith. My church can take them or leave them, and I personally think both angels and demons are metaphors.)
o.O Dude. *fangirls your researching*
It was full of informative things like: “Angels and men (sic), as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey towards their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray” (311) and “The Church teaches that Satan was first a good angel, made by God: ‘The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally by God, but they became evil by their own doing.’” (391) and “This ‘fall’ consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign” (392).
Really? Now that's interesting. So by that tradition, angels would have free will.... Hm.
I do love that Anna Milton fell through disobedience. Yay for the shoutout to Paradise Lost!
Oh, absolutely!
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So by that tradition, angels would have free will.... Hm.
Absolutely! They must, or else the story of Lucifer's fall just wouldn't work. He must have been able to choose between good and evil, and then have chosen evil, or else he either couldn't have fallen, or the fall would have been beyond his control.
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Absolutely! They must, or else the story of Lucifer's fall just wouldn't work. He must have been able to choose between good and evil, and then have chosen evil, or else he either couldn't have fallen, or the fall would have been beyond his control.
That makes perfect sense. I had thought there was something about Lucifer being in the first rank of angels and subsequent ones that came about after the Fall were not allowed free will, but I'm not sure where I picked that up from. Maybe something in college.
It's funny, being a fan of this show. I took a course on Milton in college, and also did a bit of an independant study into Dante's Inferno, among other things, and I never thought that years later I'd be wishing I could find the course materials and the essays I wrote because of a TV show.